Hi Grams:

I understand completely. No rush. I just made a major change in how I observe yhwh's sabbath. It took me 5 or 6 years for me to figure it all out to my current understanding.

yhwh is willing to be long-suffering with us so we should also be willing to follow that example.

Hello DCInC,

These verses kept running around in my head as I read what you said and what I was trying to get out .


Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


There are other verses that I just cant find! Did not think I was going to find these.
Acts 15:10 & 11 still sound good to me !

I am still trying to figure that first one ,

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

I am reading it two different way's !
Just when I thought I was getting a grip on more of the bible.

Hello DCInC,

My husband told me to take a better look at the verse before that one !

So that is what I am going to do for now...

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Hi Grams:


Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

These verses provide an excellent reference to bring into the discussion especially verse 10.

First, these verses start off mentioning 'a newer segment of those of the Law', those Pharisees who believed the gospel, but still yet had to shake many of the rituals of Judaism they knew from their youth. Even though they believed yhwh's gospel they still did not understand those teachings (ak(inappropriately)a. Law) that were specifically for the Israelites only, circumcision, for example, did not apply to the gentiles. We are not even taught that today. I only just figured it out myself recently

A few verses later at the prompting of James, a letter was written to believers in Antioch which in part said ...

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: (KJV) (emphasis by DCInC)

Here it is confirmed that the teaching (Law) of circumcision only applied to believing Jews (Israelites, as well to all Hebrews) and not to believing gentiles. The teaching of circumcision never did apply to the gentiles and never will but it will apply to the Israelites throughout all their generations (forever) according to the Torah (teachings).

The letter said that there never was given any instructions to any disciples, not even those believing Pharisses, that the teaching of circumcision should be taught to the gentiles simply because the scriptures do not give that teaching in regard to gentiles, only Israelites (and, by the way, all Hebrews who are descendants of Abraham which of course includes the ancient Israelites).

Acts 15:10 is a verse that has been given a twisted meaning in the English it seems to me. It is written in the English in a way that makes it seem that the teachings of yhwh are unbearable when indeed those teachings instead support life to its fullest.

For instance, the word yoke is thought to be figuratively a symbol of harsh servitude that is contrary to good living when in Hebraic thought it was just the opposite. Literally, in the Hebraic sense, yoke means 'to join' because most often it joined two oxen together so that their duties were easier for them to perform.

The yoke, for one thing, not only shared the load of the job that needed to be done to maintain life, but it was also an instrument of teaching, a tool of supporting other ox and a bond of unity that would result from its use rather than just putting the load on a single individual.

It was considered an instrument of teaching because an older ox could show by example to a younger ox how to best use the yoke to get the work done that has to be done in a living existence to have continued life.

It was considered a tool of supporting others in that the younger ox could support the older ox in terms of it's vigorous energy that youth has that wanes in the aging process.

Factors like these that are seen in the Hebraic view of a yoke promote a very strong image of unity amongst believers of yhwh in how the oxen consequently work together as a stronger unit than the sum of its parts to get the work done that needs to be done, and done much more efficiently and easily.

The yoke was not intended to be a symbol of harsh servitude that the KJB seems to project, but instead to represent how the way that life is handled in a more proper way to be able to experience life's blessings.

Jesus admonished believers to ...
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
... because the burdens of living without the teachings of yhwh are great and unbearable. But coming under the yoke of the teachings of yhwh in a proper setting of understanding lessens those burdens of unbearable living existence that do not pursue those teachings of yhwh. By taking up the yoke of the messiah, one is able to do those things that living existence needs to have done that make life abundant because under that yoke of unity with the son of yhwh, one learns to go about putting those teachings to proper use rather than thinking of them as a burden.

The teachings (ak(inappropriately)a. Law) of yhwh are consequently easy and light, according to the messiah, because his yoke is based upon the teachings of yhwh regarding living existence, just the very opposite that is taught by most religious organizations because they inappropriately consider the teachings of yhwh as a set of laws requiring obedience rather than being identified as the precepts of life and living as yhwh actually points out.

The other term-set in Acts 10:15 that gives readers an inappropriate idea of the teachings (yoke) of yhwh is "nor ... bear". It is taken as meaning to be 'un'bearable, whereas in Hebraic thought it means that something that needs to be done, is not done, more because of laziness or having the desire to do something else. ie. to go fishing instead of weeding the garden.

As Peter mentioned in the above passage, it is one of the teachings (ak(inappropriately)a. Law) that was difficult to learn (bear) even for the forefathers (ancestors) of the first century Jews as well as the first century believers of yhwh because, at various periods of time in their history, those forefathers stopped believing yhwh and did not follow that teaching of circumsion and very few of the other teachings of yhwh, at all, either. So, those generations could not then enjoy the blessings that come from following the teachings of yhwh in how they bring about abundance of life and living.

So contrary to the western ideas read into these verses, including that fictitious 'yoke of the law is too burdensome to bear' concept, the teaching of yhwh is that the 'yoke of the teachings of the precepts of life make living much easier'. Isn't it incredible how mankind has twisted the words of yhwh into a form that means the exact opposite from the intent of yhwh?

In addition to this, in my estimation, the religion of Judaism came up with a whole lot of micro-managing rules for those of Judaism to 'obey' so that they would hopefully follow yhwh 'to the letter' and never go back into exile again. That approach didn't work because it became based upon self-righteousness and works of 'The Law" and its meaningless rituals that were added to the teachings of yhwh rather than following the simpler precepts of living as found in the teachings of yhwh that lead to abundance.

So this backdrop was at the heart of the meeting of the apostles in Jerusalem relating largely to circumcision, and in their discussions, they decided that since their forefathers could not, and/or would not, handle the unnecessary requirements of Judaism and often even the teachings of yhwh, then why should the apostles make unnecessary demands upon the gentile believers to follow teachings of yhwh that applied only to Israelites and not to gentiles.

Those unnecessary rituals had been around for centuries and were very difficult for Jewish believers to shake, especially converted Pharisees. We all suffer for that phenomenon of the mind; being unwilling to change our habits and customs that we have understood as truth 'forever' even if they were not the truth of yhwh.

So what all this adds up to is that, although there are some differences between Israelite believers and gentile believers in terms of ritual, those differences DO NOT alter how salvation for either type of believer comes to them which is only through grace and the righteousness that comes from the faith that leads to salvation.

That is always happening to me as well. The trick is to determine which of the two different ways is the way of man and which is the way closest to the way of yhwh.

I have found that I've changed my mind on many of the past concepts I once was taught and held by asking yhwh for wisdom in such matters and being willing to open my mind to ideas I found in the scriptures (specifically the meanings behind the translated English words) that ran contrary to the teachings of religious organizations. The KJB has the basic concepts of yhwh in it but they are much better understood when some of those twisted English renderings are untwisted.

Keep studying Grams, with all sincerity, and you will be given gifts of life from yhwh that you can only imagine now. yhwh will show you his way. It is yours for the asking. I will endeavour to do the same.

Hoping for you to have the fullness of yhwh before you always.

Hi Grams:

Do you see how this verse continues to confirm everything that we've discussed so far that neither Abraham, nor his seed (the race of the Hebrew peoples that include both Israelites and many of the Arab nations, AS WELL AS the messiah himself) are heirs of the world through works (only the doing of the teachings) but rather heirs only because of the righteousness that comes through the faith that causes belief in yhwh?

Even yhshua was not saved by works but only because he believed yhwh. However he could be raised back to life because of his exclusively righteous works, not having sinned even once, but it was only his belief in yhwh that was responsible for him to be able to continue in eternal, righteous life (salvation).

Shalom

DcinC , One of the prolbem in your discussion with Grams about certain customs of Jewish and the Christian religion is that you exclude most Christians. Most of us do not care whether faith or works are more important. To us both are important, Moses was not saved by works alone but by his faith in what God had reveal to man in his time.. The narrow definition of faith in Jesus Christ was not necessary in his time.

Also the rituals of the Jews were replaced by new rituals in Christianity. So circumcised was replace by Baptism. Animal sacrifice was replaced by the sacrifice in the Mass of what appears to be bread and wine. Most Christians continue this in their communion service. Christ did not do away with the Law but fulfilled it.

Hi aus22:

Thanks for your comments, aus. Haven't seen you in a bit.

In my comments with Grams, I wasn't really thinking in terms of one being more important than the other so I'm kind of wondering how you got that impression. I haven't seen that in Grams' comments either that I can think of. Both faith and works have to be working together just as you say or nothing comes of just one or the other.

I'm not sure what you mean here by "narrow" or what difference it might make between now and then.

Having been a Christian at one time as you know, I am looking at the religious rituals I did then and those rituals of other sects of Christianity that I knew about or have learned about since and have found that when compared to the scriptures, there is most often significant differences in today's rituals that are not supported by the scriptures. That is one reason why I left Christianity.

For instance, although I didn't understand this at the time of leaving Christianity, I now see from the scriptures that circumcision is a ritual that is to be carried on throughout all the generations of the Israelites even (or especially) those who believe yhwh and the gospel of yhwhshua. It is a forever covenant between yhwh and the descendants of Abraham.

Circumcision, as I see it, has little to do with the purpose of baptism but I can see how the two could be made to seem connected only because I was once a Christian and have seen how such relations have been established by Christian organizations where they are not supported by the scriptures.

Circumcision was sanctioned as a covenant by yhwh with Abraham in connection with the promise of yhwh to make Abraham the forefather of many nations. It is a ritual that is marked in the scriptures for all descendants of Abraham forever but not for those of nations who have not come from Abraham.

While I may understand it that way now, I also understand that others see it differently such as the doctrines of your organization. The traditional Christian organization I was once with didn't really discuss circumcision at all other than giving a kind of unspoken idea that it just wasn't done anymore. I don't remember the non-traditional Christian organizations I was with referring to it at all in terms of current rituals although they did not sanction it for new-borns coming in their congregations even though they considered themselves to be descendants of Abraham usually through Ephraim/Manasseh (sons of Joseph (of coat of many colours fame)). So their actions in this regard would speak to their beliefs.

DCinC, I only intervene in this discussion to show that there may be different views among Christians. The danger of this forum being dominated by minority views is that people might think you are speaking for all Christians.
I want to concentrate on what the majority of Christians agree, You say
We accept this and this is still the practiced of most Jewish religions. However the majority of Christians, and by this, I mean the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodists and Lutheran churches do also believe that Baptism was instituted by Christ for new members. I could quote the Bible to support this but you will just say its a bad translation.

What I am interested is your belief that circumcised is only for some of God's people but not for all. Does this means that you think that God makes different rules for different people? Do you think there is no ritual for entry to other branches of God's followers?

Hello DCInC,

You were saying:



Yes when I was Catholic , we did all kinds of things!

But now at this Church, we are just being taught and explained were one part in the bible can fit with another, or how it was ,and is now.
We do not believe we have to do any thing to become saved.
Just believe, and treat every one as you would yourself !

Upon belief we have it all !

I am still re - reading you post. Its going to take some time.

As I was reading one of your post, this one caught my eye.

We have a man in our church, he has a musical group "Sound Doctrine"
And he seems to write his own son's! which we all love.

I discovered why I like them so much, because they bring you up and make you think, and not drag you down and make you keep feeling sad.

Hello DCInC,

Now I am wondering are we on the same page ?

Are we in opposite beliefs ?

I believe things changed , when Jesus did what GOD asked Him to do ......

Their has always been salvation, but in different way's.

BUT NOW



I do see a big difference in the OT and the NT.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.