One way of getting rid of an awkward concept is to redefine it.

Chronos time is not equal to 'Kairos time'

Very creative, and unfounded in anything other than assertion.

I propose 'Peanut Time'. One 'Peanut second' is equal to the time felt when waiting to have a tooth extracted by your dentist multiplied by 5 chronos seconds.

Should you accept 'peanut time' as gullibily as you would wish me to accept 'Kairos time'?

If not; why not?

I have said several times to Dax and Helice that we Christians are grateful for them giving space to religion. These days with some much political debate dominated by the USA this is often the only place I can respond.

However you seen eager to ridicule Christian

The many Nuns I have met have answer this question. I have not seen such joy by any married couple I have seen in these nuns. Of course this can not be explain by human standards. Words are inadequate to express this joy of being so close to Jesus. Poems by William Blake and others try to do this. One poem by Henry Van Dyke Jesus the Divine Companion states
Jesus the Divine Companion
By thy lowly birth
Thou has come to join the workers
Burden bearers of the Earth
Thou the Carpenter of Nazareth
Toiling for thy daily food
By They patience and thy courage
Thou has taught us to be good.

There are many Stories of the nuns devotion in book like Something Beautiful for Godby Malcolm Muggeridge. For example Mother Teresa says about the complete peace and happiness of her religious life. "The happiness that no one can take from me. And there has never been any doubt or any unhappiness.. So much so she inspire educated girls from middle - class or upper class homes , suddenly to be mixing with the poorest, the most wretched and most ill from the streets. The Nuns see God in the poor. They wanted to make a total surrender to God that is the requirement of a truly religious. As Sister Joseph said they had to give up everything and "this made her Very happy. Because I feel I can give much to help others.'

They would all say their lives were full of joy.Regardless of denomination this joy is expressed by many Christians who love Jesus before anyone else and are prepare to give up everything to help others.

Hi minesadorada:

Sorry mines, I'm either missing something or else I wrote something that gave you a completely different view from my intent.

I don't remember suggesting or expecting or wishing that you should accept anything I said about chronos/kairos time. I've only replied to Chocolategenii on this subject asking what was her take on kairos time after she brought it up in discussion with you.

In the mean time I looked it up which confirmed it was of Greek origin and was a bit disappointed to find it was quite a bit less than 'profound' in meaning although its intended to be associated with moments of profoundness. I agree from what I looked up that chronos time does not equal kairos time; however, as I understand it, kairos time is a very small aspect encompassed within chronos time.

Kairos time has nothing to do with the timeless aspect I associate with yhwh from what I can determine of it and I was interested in Chocolategenii's take on it if it is different in how I understand what I read about it, especially in how it might relate to "GOD SUPREME" (however one defines that).

DC, kairos time is an abstract concept difficult to understand. Kairos time is called Gods time because it transcends beginning and end. Mortal beings live in Chronos time...however, we are given the ability to experience Kairos time on limited basis in relation to singular events or moments. God however lives in Kairos time which transcends beginning and end. Kairos time is a universal spiritual concept. By God Supreme, I mean God Supreme...you refer to Him as yhwh. I hope that answers your question.

DC, btw....the kairos time is also a hindu tradition.

Are you a Dr. Who fan? In Dr Who. Jack Harkness says that the doctor is a bit uncomfortable with his existence because he represents a fixed point in space and time. Kairos has to be experienced it cannot be observed because it does not pass linearly. The concept of Kairos is difficult for people to explain if they believe in an Anthropomorphic god

Hi Chocolategenii:

"Transcends" is a term that I glossed over when it was used so much in the 1960's-70s. (I didn't make a very good hippy, or, 'whatever'. ) More recently I take it more seriously but I want to make sure I understand your use of it.

By 'transcend' do you mean that 'God's' time extends 'before' the beginning of physical Chronos time as well as 'after' it, but yet in a very different way that Chronos time? Or do you mean it is a time of a differing 'transcending' quality yet embedded within Chronos time? Or do you mean a combination of both, or, something altogether different?

From what I read on the internet I took it to be more like a eureka moment like when I finally understood what the 'I AM Christ' crowd of Matthew 24 meant, or when I discovered the meaning of the name (character), yhwh, or how the Hebrew term 'elohim' ('mighty ones' or 'gods') related to the name, yhwh.

Those were huge moments of understanding to me that are embedded in Chronos time, at least, how I understand it. But I do not see that as 'yhwh's time' in terms of how he exists in a timeless state. Quite frankly, I have yet to come to an understanding of how one might exist in a timeless state. That is what prompted me to ask you about Kairos time.

It is beyond my imagination to visualize the timelessness of yhwh because I can only see living existence tied into Chronos time because, with the exception of a few theories and very complex (to me) experiments that confirm at least portions of those theories, that Chronos time is not quite as linear as we see first hand without science.

I have also learned that the ancient Hebrews did not perceive time at all like us western thinkers. For instance, they thought of it in a more circular fashion, perhaps something like what I've read about the Mayans, or, in terms of things of nature of the life, death, life, etc. cycle, and things like the future was 'behind' them (because it couldn't be seen) and the past was before them (because they knew it all through their experiencing of it).

On the other hand all of time is before (eeek, or rather, 'in front of', trying to think 'timelessly') yhwh. He doesn't 'time travel'. It's all right there. It isn't that he is the so-called 'ever present' because that is in terms of time, although that is only how we can perceive it. With the existence of yhwh, there is no past, present or future. There just 'is'; and even that cannot be expressed accurately in English because there is still the element of 'the present', Chronos time, in that expression. English is quite frustrating in that way.

English has no way of properly expressing the existence of yhwh in terms of time or timelessness. It's verb tense, again, only expresses past, present or future (with a few qualifications attached). They are all related directly to time. But the verb tense of Hebrew is perhaps closer in expressing the existence of yhwh because time is not directly a determining factor of verb tense.

The verb tense of Hebrew is 'complete' or 'incomplete'. Time is not directly concerned with the Hebraic verb tense. That is at least one factor that causes so many problems in translating from Hebrew to English. There are several other issues but that is for other threads perhaps for another 'Chronos' time.

But then again, for instance, in terms of translational issues, a completed action could be regarded as 'past tense' in a way (in the English, perfect or imperfect depending upon the context but that can be very subjective depending upon the translator's dogma). In any event, I don't think that really addresses the concept of how the ancient Hebrews thought about it from what I read recently on this subject of the ancient Hebrew language.

No matter what we might think, or think we might know, there is the problem that we cannot know for sure because what was originally revealed to the ancient Hebrews and what was expressed in the ancient Hebrew language has either been lost, distorted or only partially understood properly at best. So in this lifetime it seems very unlikely we can know for sure how yhwh exists in terms of time/timelessness, Chronos or Kairos, until it is once again revealed to mankind in how it was originally revealed to the ancients of the scriptures, or perhaps at a greater level of understanding according to the promise of the inheritance given to Abraham.

Weeeeeeeell; not really perhaps. That is a Yogi Berraism and is more of a label assignment. Please do not take that as any form of criticism. It is pretty much how I once thought, after all.

But over the years, I came to understand that the English term 'God' usurps the existence of yhwh, or at least tries to, for the purpose of religious organizations to 'deify' their 'God' so they could step into 'God's' place on 'His' behalf to satisfy their own agendas with a cloak of looking 'religious', rather than to understand and properly teach, with the might that is available from yhwh, the teachings (improperly dubbed 'The Law') of yhwh about living existence, both physical and spiritual (eternal).

In my thinking now, there is no comparison between 'God/God Supreme' and yhwh in terms of my current understanding of the English term 'God'. Again, I'm not saying that to be flippant or irreverent to anyone or their beliefs. To the contrary, that's what all the studying I've done over the decades has caused me to discover within the Hebrew scriptures. Unfortunately what I've found is only the tip of the iceberg and there is so much more that I can not hope to discover in this age because of how the ancient writings have been mishandled.

yhwh is not a deity or 'God'. He is the one and only almighty one who exists because of righteousness and who is responsible for the living existence of all other mighty ones which includes all of humanity according to a NT comment by the messiah based upon a teaching from the Hebrew scriptures.

So perhaps I could encourage you to describe in a little more detail how you perceive 'God Supreme' because I sense you see much more to it than what the English term 'God' now suggests to me.

Sorry to be long getting back to you and for the length of this post. That's what happens when ancient writings have been trampled on for thousands of years and it takes great effort to sort through the resulting heap to figure out what is going on with them, if that is even possible at all.

... and therein lies another great stumbling block for mankind to have to deal with to overcome unbelief.

Hoping for the wholeness of yhwh for you and yours as for all mankind (aka, shalom).

Hi Dax:

Seems you may have been reading from the writings of King Solomon.

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

... See any similarities between what you wrote and what the wise king wrote? The "God" (actually 'gods' in the Hebrew scriptures) has/have hidden things in such a way that it seems that he/they himself/themselves do not exist, either, to virtually all of humanity.

Ecc 3:12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.
Ecc 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour ...

... more similarities?

The well-regarded 'Golden Rule' is based upon the precepts of living existence that yhwh regards as those actions that sustain and create life.

That is why what you say is "obvious" just as it is obvious to yhwh. The good things of life are no secret. Unfortunately there are those who think there are things that are better than those obvious good things and end up doing things that take away from life attempting to chase after a false dream that there is something better than continued righteous life.

You are not far from those precepts of living existence in your comments.

Hoping you and I as well as all living existence can find all those precepts so as to experience them to their fullest potential, if not in this age, then in a future age after the resurrection.

Dax: Zero proof either way does not translate meaningfully into '50% probability' This is a misuse of maths.

Given a square field 100 square metres, a mathematician would correctly deduce that the sides could be 10 metres or minus 10 metres long.

Only the first solution makes sense in the real world.

Zero evidence or proof translates in the real world to extremely unlikely, not 'odds even either way'.

In addition, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the claim of an undetectable sky wizard is a pretty extraordinary claim, given our current and ever-growing knowledge of the physical universe - all of which seems to refute rather than support the sky wizard theory.

Yes, most are familiar with the usual colloquial usage of the word transcend. The meaning I am referring to, is GOD operates completely outside of this world...therefore time is timeless. GOD is not subject to a time clock like we humans.



Kairos time, is multidimensional. We live an operate in a 3 dimensional world. When we expand our understanding of "time", we realize it is 4 dimensional...as physicists clearly believe. I am an artist, so I can not work without kairos time. A whole day can go by in my life..as I work, and I feel like only 20 minutes has gone by. Other times, if I am bored....time slows. It doesn't change on the face of the clock, but it your inner clock does something...and tells you time is either slower or faster. So yes, kairos time is very real and can be experienced.

Like I was explaining to Mines, chronos time and kairos time can co exist. Hence we have a "beginning" (Genesis), but all the same, there is no beginning....because like the ancients believed "time is circular". The Hopis of today live by this time. They did not understand "chronos" time when Europeans conquered them. They were forced to learn chronos time.


In my opinion yhwh IS GOD SUPREME. Call Him what you like.

Time, which passed so slowly when we were children now rushes by. In a just Universe, it would be the other way around.