You said "Discipleship to me is simply friendship".

Your wrong. Being a disciple of someone, master or lord, means you don't define what it is "to you". What it is to the master or lord is what you follow. So, whos disciple are you?

I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. Which means the things I believe are the doctrines He sets forth. The things I do are the things which He teaches. Relationships of different kinds form around these beliefs and actions.

Discipleship involves you and the one you are a disciple of.

Lees.. I said I agree that through a relationship with Christ is where it all begins..

Matthew 22:37-40 "Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. 'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

and from the Parable of the Good Samaritan in

Luke 10:36-37 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

We are indeed in relationship with Jesus, first and foremost. But Jesus asks of us, immediately, to 'love others'. The two greatest commandments are intimate AND inclusive.




I never said this nor did I imply it.

There is only one time in the Bible that Jesus tells us to hate.

Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."

But since we also know we are to honor our parents.. this quote from Jesus in John opens up the fuller meaning of the Luke verse..

John 12:25 "The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life."

No where does Jesus tell us to hate this world. Oh, he makes it clear others might hate us.. but hardly are we in the US persecuted for our faith as Jesus tells us we might be, or as those are, today, in other parts of the world.

But we also know what Jesus asks of us, regarding others...

Matthew 5:43-48 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

wanderingspryte: You picked out an interesting scripture. If a person loved and obeyed their teacher and here in this thread we are speaking specificly of Jesus (Yahshua) and the pupils who are being taught by the teacher, and a command is given, not a "would you if you want to," but an actual command, wouldn't the pupils do what the teacher instructed?

In this case it was the Passover and here the teacher who is changing the symbols of the Passover get's up and washes all of the 12 Apostles feet, like the lowest slave would do, and then commands all 12 of the pupils who are his disciples to do this very thing.

Not only was He teacher but He was also their Master, which means He is the "boss" and there is no other way. Not even an ateration but exactly "do this", then wouldn't a true disciple follow the teachers examle and command?

He set the example and said....

"Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. "You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet.

Would a true disciple do this since it came directly from the Boss and Teacher? That means you would have to be with other "disciple" to do this very thing and "wash each others feet".

What the Master was teaching was how to keep the Passover properly with the right attitude of being a servant not a "boss" and this attitude has to be a part of a disciples life, in all aspects, not just with other disciples.

So there is more then one command here. First is to keep the Passover and a disciple would keep it as this example points out, then this specific verse in the Passover service reagarding washing eanch other's feet and the Boss Commands it be done.

I suppose this would show who a disciple "is", if they would do this, don't you think?

-thinker-

Lees: You said...

This is a doctrine for the Passover and how to keep it. If you are a disciple like you say you are, do you get together with other disciples and wash each others feet?

No one else said they are a disciple, but you did, so it would be interesting to gage what kind of disciple you are since a discople would wash their neighbours feet at the Passover ceremony.

This is one thing He Commanded among others so right off this action would reveal who His disciple are and you said you are.

If I said "I was a disciple" then I would have to do this as well and I am a disciple.

-thinker-

You realize the verses you quote in Matt. pertain to the Law. Is your discipleship based on the Law?

Lu.10 was not about discipleship. It involves trick questions given to Jesus Christ to find fault.

I didn't indicate that through a relationship with Christ is where it begins. I said discipleship is always between you and Jesus Christ.

The world will hate the Christian. This is not the persecution you are talking about. This is just a natural reaction of the world to those who are Christian. The world hates Jesus Christ. The world also hates the Christian.

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

This is a more perfect test toward those who claim the name of Christ. What is the worlds opinion of you?

Actually, "the world" (meaning, I suppose, society) hates plenty of people that are its own.

So, you might want to claim that "the world" hates you because you are a Christian, but in fact it may hate for that, or not for that, but any of a whole pack of reasons.



Yeah, but what if you were all proud of being hated because you thought it was because you were Christian, when really it was because of your bad breath and your bad combover and your way of staring and frowning at everyone and scaring their children?

I didn't say it. Jesus Christ did. Didn't He.

I dont claim it because I am a Christian. I claim it because Jesus Christ said it.

Yes, the world can find a whole lot of reasons to hate the Christian.

So, I tell you what the Bible says, and now I am a "proud" Christian.


We are not talking about "what if". If you find a Christian and you hate him, I guess you can claim it was because of his bad breath if you want. If it makes you feel better.

What if you are using all those accusations against the Christian just to hide the fact that you hate the Christian. What if?

So, basically you're saying that if one says they hate a Christian because of his bad breath they're just making an excuse because it's impossible for a Christian to have bad breath?

Next thing you know you'll be saying it's impossible for someone who says they're a Christian to be an obnoxious prig.

The world doesn't need any reason to hate the Christian other than he is a Christian.

Because of this hatred for the Christian, the world will be quick to find faults real or exaggerated. But its not the faults that fuel their anger, its their being Christian. Their faults just become something the world can use.

So, the "next" thing I would say is that it is impossible for the world to not hate the Christian.

If one claims the name of Jesus Christ, and the world has a good opinion of him, he better check his relationship with Christ. Shall we Christians be pleased to be well recieved by those who despised our Lord?

Now that would be obnoxious.

Gosh! I'll bet that's a real bummer for those Christians who are respected by their friends and neighbors, and admired by the community for their obvious emulation of the ideals Christ set forth for his followers. I imagine they remorsefully cry themselves to sleep each night vowing they'll turn over a new leaf in the morning, by tossing their trash into the neighbor's yard, kicking a puppy that belongs to the little old lady down the street, and rudely speaking to everyone they meet on the street.

The resultant public anger directed towards them would undoubtedly send them to bed with a rosy glow of satisfaction knowing: "Surely I am a true Christian now. See how I'm hated!"