Hi thinker:

You may have already had a thread on this at some point perhaps before my time on FM but I thought it might be profitable to start this new one since this subject keeps popping up in various other threads quite often. We've discussed this recently and I've taken part of that discussion to start this thread.

Taken from a previous post (somewhere in: 'Is Hell and Hell Fire a Punishment or a Cleansing?'):


There are a couple of points I'd like to add to this, one which I couldn't find before for some reason (search engine problem?) and something else I realized when reviewing this post above.

I couldn't find this scripture before which says exactly what my point is ...

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Yeshua is the Messiah is born of YHWH: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of YHWH, when we love YHWH, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of YHWH, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of YHWH overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Yeshua is the Son of YHWH?

So as you can see our overcoming begins with the faith that is given us by YHWH. Without Him giving us that faith we can in no way believe Him. With that faith and works of obedience according to the Law of YHWH we develop our belief in YHWH. When we belief in YHWH we are justified, in the exact same way Abraham was justified, by that faith that we were given in the first place.

Justification means that our sins are forgiven by YHWH so that we are made righteous in the same way we were when we were born. That puts us into the position where we can be given salvation and keep it, as long as we continue to believe YHWH.

To those in this age who continue to believe (as in Acts) the earnest (deposit) of the Holy Spirit is given. That granting of the Holy is the guarantee to eternal life. As long as it remains in the believer, in other words as long as one believes YHWH, entrance into the kingdom, and eternal life, is guaranteed.

So it isn't obedience or good works alone that gets us eternal life. It is the belief in YHWH that we develop by combining the faith given us by YHWH with works of the Law so we can be given the Holy Spirit that guarantees us now that future eternal life. We can only lose it by knowingly given it back to Him which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit within us.

It is the continued growth of our belief, further increases of faith and works in comparison to the capabilities and faith we have been given, that determines whether or not we enter the government of the kingdom of YHWH.

Not entering the government of the kingdom of does not mean being cast into the lake of fire and missing eternal life. It means ...

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Children of the kingdom are those who are saved otherwise they would not be of the kingdom. There will be no one weeping and gnashing teeth in the lake of fire and its instant death. There will be no time for that. The children of the kingdom whose works are as stubble and burned will just simply live out their lives in this age, die and rise up in the second resurrection.

They will not miss out on eternal life in the kingdom, they will only miss out on being part of the government of the kingdom. That's why the kingdom is not the government although the government is part of the kingdom. (Same as the Jew/Israelite differential.) That is a mistake that the CoG organizations have fallen into and perhaps even the AoY.

So the second point I have brings us back to ...

Revelation 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Specifically this does not say eternal life. It says 'eat of the tree of life'. To me that means that we will have been put into a position to enjoy eternal life not necessarily how we receive it. As I understand it as I hope I've properly explained above, it is the granting of the Holy Spirit through believing YHWH that gives us eternal life not works.

I see how we can get trapped into thinking that it is works that gets us eternal life though because works is part of the process but not the specific part that gives life because it leads us to believe that it is by works that we are saved and receive eternal life rather than by belief and the Holy Spirit.

We cannot earn or work our way into salvation or eternal life. It can only be given to us by YHWH as a gift or inheritance through His grace and our belief which is based upon proven or applied faith. We have to work to belief though, once we are given the faith of Yahshua.

Unlike the ancient Israelites, we must not follow their example of unbelief and the death that it brought and instead overcome our unbelief so we can live.

Iron upon iron.

The most important thing we have to overcome is ourselves , and the main thing we need to be saved from is ourselves.

Hi Sleek Phantom Mystic:

You wrote: I agree. We have to overcome our unbelief of those things of The Creator that are within us. We are only stopping ourselves by ourselves in this.

Sleek Phantom Mystic: I agree with the first part of your statement we have to overcome ourselves because it is us who sins and we have to learn to stop sinning.

The second part is somewhat ambiguous and could mean a number of things. It seems to me when reading the scriptures, everyone of us has incurred the death penalty for having sinned. The removal of the death penalty is what we are saved from, if we first repent then are Baptized in the Name of Yashua the Messiah, which is for the removal of sins as stated in [Acts 2:38], which is according to the scriptures.

-thinker-

DCInC: I've held back from answering because I was caught up with the new definition of "hate" and was preoccupied with that and also I was wondering if I had something else to learn that I wasn't seeing, so I had to think on it.

Several places you keep saying...


I just can't wrap my mind around what you are saying.

As we both know, Salvation is a process and the whole process must have been gone through, otherwise we only get through part of it and it is unfinished.

If anyone of us are in the First Resurection, we get Eternal Life plus a position in the Government. You can't get just half of this. The whole purpose for the Church, which is in reference to the "called out ones", is to get ready for the marriage and the right "clothing" must be worn to that marriage feast.

The "clothing' is a metaphor for being clothed in righteousness, which is had by keeping the Commandments. We decide whether we want to cloth ourselves in this manner. YaHWeH prepares our minds when "calling us" but it is we who must choose to obey. YaHWeH doesn't choose for us. That's why this is the prerequisit before having the sins removed.

First "He" makes the move to changing the minds of those "He" chooses, then these people must make a decision as to whether or not they will accept what is being offered.

Eternal Life and a position in "His" Government is being offered.

The first part of the process then includes the changing of the mind to make it receprtive, then a person must repent to get to the next step then be Baptized in the Name of the Messiah for the removal of sins which also removes the death penalty. This is done by YaHWeH who uses the Blood of "His" Son to cover your sins.

This does not get you Eternal Life, it only removes the death penalty, which is what "Grace" is.

Now what?

This is the part the Protestants stop at and think this is all there is to Salvation but the next step has to be accomplished to get Eternal Life. Any who are the Church must follow thrugh ir they don't get it. There isn't another chance for them in the "second resurection", so it's a "life and death" situation. You personally have to make the choice.

The young rich man is the perfect example. He was being considered for Apostleship but first he had to get rid of his personal "idol", which was his money and wealth in order to get Eternal Life.

He asks the question, and the reply is simple...

Matthew 19:17
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, Elohim: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

This is reverberated throughout the scriptures....

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/index.php?search=keep%20the%20Commandments&version1=9&searchtype=all&startnumber=51

... and this is part of the process of Salvation as the Messiah points out.

Remember, only the possible officials are being selected at this time. I say possible because it is up to us to stay the course. Paul says the same thing and was concerned himself that after having preached and explained the process that he himself could lose out if he didn't stay the course himself.

So effort of each individual will determine if each individual get's it.

If you want Eternal Life, keep the Commandments. That's what he said.

After YaHWeH removes your sins, you then must learn to overcome and this again is your part in the process. You have to do it.

That's why Paul, speaking of himself, "Oh wretched man that I am. The things I want to do... I don't do this. but instead, I do the things I don't want to do." What he is refering to is keeping the Commandments. The same thing the Messiah said to the young rich man.

Paul speaking by letter to the Corinthians, who were already Baptized and had their sins removed and had the Holy Spirit given by YaHWeh as a gift and were saved from the death penalty still had to do the overcoming. Look at what he said to this group who were saved byt still didn't have the position clinched....

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Government of Elohim? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Government of Elohim.

These are just some of the things that these people were but had quit this practise and had abstained or overcome to this point as Paul says and note this is unrighteousness if you do these things and the opposit is "righteousness"....

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Master Yahshua, and by the Spirit of our Elohim.

This is what happens when you repent and are Baptized in the Name of the Messiah but you can't go back to what you were. You have to resist and fight all of the temptations of your own flesh and of Satan and "his" demons. This is overcoming.

this you personally must do by using the Holy Spirit. It is the "tool" you must use in overcoming but you personally have to expend the effort. You must build your own "spiritual muscle" by excersing over and over again and resisting the temptations.

You are just like an athlete training for the Olynpics, nothing can get in your way or you wont get the crown. Paul uses this example...

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air (shadow boxing):

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Just like an athlete has to tone up his own body in every category to win, so then is the person whom YaHWeH calls for a position in "His" Government. Instead of building physical muscles a person tones up his "spiritual muscles" by resisting temptations and bring your own body into subjection, developing the character required to get the position. all of the people in Corinth had something to overcome and by the list Paul mentions some were homosexuals and had to refrain that practise if they wanted to get a position in the Government.

So they had to overcome their own personal tendencies to sin and the Messiah caps it off by saying....

Revelation 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

If you dont overcome, your not going to get access to the tree of Life which is Eternal Life, In other words your not going to be in the First Resurection and therefore wont get a crown and you will be castaway as Paul says in regards to himself.

You yourself are going to make it if you overcome. YaHWeH supplies everything you need to do it but you must make the effort and train till you get the crown.

The parable of the talents reveals what the guy did with the One talent and did nothing. No training, no resisting, no exercise, nothing that an athlete needs to win, so YaHWeH takes back "His" Holy Spirit and this person will face death.

So I disagree with the doctrine you accepted from the Universalists who say "all" are going to make it.

Just like Adam had to make the choice, so we also must choose life or death. Adam had access to Eternal Life and lost out. He never got it and died. When Adam is brought back to life, which resurection do you think he will be in? I don't know the answer but he certainly wont be in the First. That only leaves the other two.

You quoted [I Cor. 3:10-15] and said...


I disagree. Look at the next verses....

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of Elohim, and that the Spirit of Elohim dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of Elohim, him shall Elohim destroy; for the temple of Elohim is holy, which temple ye are.

Your works are very important and how close a person can get to the line is not known, but you better make every effort to get away from being close to the line.

YaHWeh will allow you to lose everything you own including your life to see what you will do. There is no "half-assed" effort when it comes to getting Eternal Life. Either you want it with all your being or you are getinng close to the cut-off line and could lose out. Like Paul said, he himself could be a castaway if he didn't put every effort into it even though he preached to others and telling them they must put every effort into it.

Your works proves your faith in what you say you belive in.

Works don't remove the "death penalty" only the Blood can dod that but your works determine if you get Eternal Life or not. If you don't get Eternal Life you autommatically don't get the position. In other words you've had it. Every decision we make is a life and death situation. "Half assed" don't cut it.

You said...

You mean "as long as the believer does what he is supposed to do." You can believe everything the Messaih said have it memorized and do nothing with it and you lose if you don't put it into practise.

To what degree can you keep the Ten Commandments? from 0-100 percent what degree will allow you to make it. You are tested by firey trials to see how far you will go according to your endurance. Abraham was tested right to the point of lifting the knife to kill his own son Isaac. That's a fiery trial I hope never to go through. What if he balked, do you think his name would be in Hebrews 11:8? He believed everything he was told to do and did it. those are works that determine what you are going to get.

Just because you get the Holy Spirit at Baptism and the laying on of hands, that's only a downpayment. You have to do your part to get the rest. If you don't do your part, that which given to you as downpayement will be taken back and you get nothing.

It's like your carpet cleaning business, I give you a down payment to start thejob but if you don't finish you don't get the rest.

Paul fought right to the end and gave it his all. He said....

Hebrews 12
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve Elohim acceptably with reverence and the fear of Elohim:

29 For our Elohim is a consuming fire.

Your keeping of the Commandments must be with everything you can produce and this is acceptable but if your effort is lest then acceptable, what kind of service do you think this reveals?

A "good-enough" attitude wont cut it. It must be the best you can produce just like the animals that were used in the sacrifices. Your best is what is required. Nothing else counts.

That's not very much room to maneuvre in. It's all or nothing.

You quoted [Mat 8:11-12] and said....


I see it differently. Outer darkness is reserved for the angelics being who didn't make it because they are "immortal" and can't die. The human race either die or are given immortality.

If a person is unfortuante enough to come up in the third resurection, it is because they were once saved and died but now face a sentencing and there will be plenty of weeping and gritting the teeth when you see the Lake of Fire and your Eternal Death.

Humanity doesn't go into outer darkness that's reserved for the demons.

Those who are chosen to be the leadership have the better resurection to be in, but if you think you don't make it in this resurection but can be in the "second" I think you err in your thinking.

It's all or nothing. YaHWeH is choosing the less then attractive choices in wisdom and ability to show it can be done, but they don't get a second chance at kicking the ball for Eternal Life. It's a package deal.

You said...

Your making the same error as the Protestants. Getting "saved" is getting saved from the death penalty which is done by removing the sins with the Blood. Acts 2:38 reveals how you are saved initially so you can get the ball rolling. Once your sins are removed so is the death penalty. this is getting saved. Then to get Eternal Life you must meet the requirements as the Messaih said. Keep the Commandments.

It's just like a figure skater going through their performance, each jump and spin is rated from a zero to a ten and you are judged on your performance. You don't win the Gold if your performance ins't the best. That's what Paul was talking about. Once the performance is over, you already have been judged. This determines what you get. There is only one winner.

That's why a person is placed under grace. Grace is the removal of the death penalty while you are triaining. When you die Your performance is over, What then is your grade. We are talking about winning Life or death. If you get Life, you also get a position in the Government. You don't get another crack at it in the "second resurection".

Adam had the same choice, choose Life or death.

Once you have access to the Messiah's Blood you don't get another shot.

Do you think the Messiah is going to be crucified another time so the guy could make it in the "second"? When your turn comes up, it's all or nothing. If your chosen to be in the First you have to make it, period. Your not given a shot at it in the "second".

the "second resurection" is reserved for those who never had the chance, which is the rest of humanity. If you were called and didn'ty make the cut, there is only one other resurection left and that is in the "third".

All of the people who left in the apostacy in Paul's lifetime are not going to come up in the "second resurection". Every era of the Church got the same instruction. Read it...

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=overcometh&version1=9&searchtype=all

and each of these is directed to those who are being "called" now.

If you don't overcome you will get the "second death"...

Revelation 2:11
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
It doesn't say you will get another crack at it in the "second resurection". That "second resurection" is for those who were never called.

Those who are called to be in the First Resurection get it or they get the "second death" and in order to get the "second death" there must be the third resurection so that you can die the second death.

Like you say, iron shapens iron. till later.

-thinker-

Hi thinker:

WARNING:This is so bloody looooong that it wasn't proof-read so there may be some insane ramblings that could be considered as being 'unholy' but actually aren't. Proceed at your own hazard.

You wrote:I can see that and while it seems crystal clear to me I can see that I'm not getting the information to you in a form that properly reveals what I'm thinking. I'll keep trying for as long as you are interested until you get what I'm trying to say. There are a number of things that need to be thought of at the same time in order for this to make sense - kind of like a golf swing. This is new to me too so I hope you can bear with me. If I can get you to understand we'll both know it and if you still disagree then that's just the way it will be for now until YaHshua reveals all when He returns. We will both be changing our views at that time to exactly match those of YHWH won't we.

Also, I'm not surprised you don't see it yet because it does require a significant shift in thinking. I have not come across it before and could not from the teaching of others. I've only been able to see it by directly studying the scriptures and bouncing what I discover there off others here on FM and a few who attend services. The ministries of the organizations I attend do not like or cannot understand my thinking on it either including AoY.

I don't look at it as one being right and the other wrong. Its more a matter of being able to see beyond what we have become familiar with to discover more aspects of the faith YHWH gives us and how the beliefs we will develop from that faith will go into the building of the Church being built upon the foundation of YaHshua.

You wrote:Yes, I agree, of course. However, I was never taught the process quite the way that you are explaining it in your posts so I have read them with great interest.

Further, I'm not aware of anyone else teaching the process as you are outlining it although it is very close to the CoG organizations teachings. At the very first when joining FM I thought you were explaining it the same way as the CoG organizations and it took me a little while to stop reading that into your posts to see what you were actually saying.

As a consequence your ideas about salvation helped me 'formulate' how I have come to think about salvation now which is ironically somewhat different from your thoughts and CoG organizations now. At WCG I was taught that we are saved at the time of our receiving of and by the receiving of the FULLNESS of the Holy Spirit which also coincides with and is the way we receive eternal life at our resurrection when YaHshua returns. And this is all only possible if we believe YHWH ('God' back then) in the same way Abraham believed YHWH. We are not saved nor do we receive eternal life by works of obedience according to the writings of Mr Armstrong and what I was taught by the WCG after his death.

But back then I had a real fuzzy idea of what faith and belief was and so could not effectively sort out to my own satisfaction how they related to one another and then how that all related to works. It took me a long time after leaving WCG to finally come to a satisfactory-to-myself concept of how all this worked together. I have come to think that if WCG had continued on as it was when I first attended it, the understanding I now have might not have become apparent to me.

So the crux of the matter as I now understand it is that although works does not gain us salvation or eternal life directly just as the scriptures state, they are an inherent part of the salvation and gaining of eternallife process. There is nothing, no works of any kind, we can do in this life that will save us or give us eternal life. Both salvation and the resulting eternal life are direct gifts fromYHWH that only He can give us and He does so because of His grace. They are conditional gifts though. They are given conditionally if we believe YHWH. And how do we develop our belief in YHWH? We do it though sincerely putting to work the faith He has given us. Those good works do not give us salvation or eternal life - they only cause us to believe YHWH. Belief in YHWH is proven faith and we prove the faith He has given us by working with it to see that it is indeed truth. When we see the truth in the faith of YHWH but our works, then we believe YHWH and He will give us salvation and eternal life. That what the book of James tells us.

Works are also necessary so that YHWH will determine the responsibilities given to individuals in the kingdom, first to those of the first resurrection which will be those who will be in the government of the kingdom of YHWH. More will join that government after the second resurrection as the kingdom of YHWH will be expanded by the billions so more leaders (not rulers) of stewardship will be necessary. This is according to the scriptures which tell us that to the increase of the government of the kingdom of YHWH there will be no end. That is because the kingdom of YHWH will forever be on the increase - never ending as the universe continues to expand.

Another aspect of works is, if they are done, even in their total, according to the letter and the Spirit of the Law, that does not mean that we have salvation or eternal life because we have all sinned at least once. Even if we are the best of the Law doers there is also the possibility that we could not be saved. That would be the case if we did the works of the Law with the intension of justifying ourselves and not with the sincere intention of building our belief in YHWH by proving the faith of YHWH given to us by those works.

You wrote:I agree.

You wrote:I once believed this but my mind is changing on this especially in light of ...

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Yeshua the Messiah.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every mans work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every mans work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any mans work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any mans work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

In other words, some might not do just as well as they could have yet they will still believe YHWH and that is what saves them. And this scriptures is talking about ALL their works being burned, not just some of them. All of us will have some works that will burn. It will only have been Yahshua who has no works that were burnt.

You wrote:This is something that has changed in my thinking lately. The called out ones are definitely those who are the Church but have you noticed how the scriptures talk about ...

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Now this has me looking at the Church quite differently especially after my experiences being involved with it over the years. How many thousands were called only to leave the Church? They obviously were not chosen. If they were not chosen, I have to think they did not receive the Holy Spirit even if they were baptized. Baptism in and of itself does not bring the Holy Spirit. Only belief in YHWH can result in His giving us the Holy Spirit. So that's how I understand at the foundational level that it is unbelief that we must overcome.

BUT IT IS THE USE OF OBEDIENT WORKS THAT IS A COMPONENT OF OVERCOMING UNBELIEF. Another component of overcoming unbelief is having been given the faith of YHWH-shua to be within us. Faith is given to us by YHWH. We in turn develop our belief in YHWH by proving the faith He gives us, through obedience to him, to be the truth. We can have faith but not have belief either because we discard the faith given to us outright or we accept it and do not prove it to ourselves causing it to be dead faith. Blind faith is that stage we go through to develop belief from that faith given to us by YHWH.

So as a result, it is the sincere combining of that faith of YaHshua in us with works of obedience of the Law of YHWH which results in our coming to believe YHWH which is how we overcome unbelief.

The Church in the wilderness included all the Israelites, not just their Spirit led leaders, and they, those who did not believe, were not chosen to enter into their rest because of unbelief. Even Moses did not enter into that rest (the Promised Land) even though he did believe!!

Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

You wrote:No, no thinker. Righteousness is NOT had by works of the Law. Righteousness in this age can only be had by believing YHWH. Our righteous works in this age are as filthy rags because we have all sinned at least once and it only takes one sin to pollute all of our good works rendering them ineffective in regards to our salvation and receiving eternal life. Righteousness can only be had by faith that is worked into belief in the presence of the Holy Spirit

However, that does not negate righteousness of good works for other things like determining what positions of responsibility individuals will be assigned in the government of the kingdom of YHWH, or showing love to our Creator, or showing love to others or most importantly to develop our belief in YHWH.

In this age we are considered righteousness only if we believe YHWH just like Abraham believed YHWH. The white clothing at that time will be metaphorical, not because of the righteousness that comes from belief but because those who have that white clothing will have been made righteous just as YHWH is righteous, never to sin again, because they will have been given the fullness of the Holy Spirit. That is the righteousness that we chose to be given in this age although it is not available to us until the next age. Righteousness through belief is temporal for us until we are given the fullness of righteousness at our resurrection by receiving the fullness of the Holy Spirit so that we cannot sin anymore. That's the meaning of the white clothes. We can't wear those white clothes in this age because our righteousness is only by belief and not from only righteous works. We are still subject to evil unrighteous works in this age. In this age we cannot claim the righteousness that comes by righteous works at all for salvation or eternal life. That righteousness is a gift due to the grace of YHWH on the condition that we believe Him.

You wrote:After thinking about this aspect for years, I am coming to the idea that YHWH's calling is not Him changing our minds so much as His giving us that faith which He knows we are most likely to accept and work with. For the decision to be fully ours, His changing of our mind would not be appropriate because if that is the case then He might as well have made us as righteous robots right from the beginning. He wants us to chose for ourselves on an independent basis, all on our own, without any influence by Him, His righteousness. In this age YHWH is looking for those who are more readily agreeable to do this. He wants those individuals who are more inclined to follow Him anyway and so He divies up His faith to us accordingly. The rest, who are resurrected in the Age of Decision need to be given a more apparent faith like the 7000 year period of history previous to it that will be a most clear testament to the extremes of the good and evil of life. As a result they will have a more vivid reason to choose good and life because of the history of man up to that point.

You wrote:This may be a small distinction, but for our decision to be our decision, I don't think YHWH changes our mind. Because of His foreknowledge He has the insight to know what we will more likely respond positively to. That is the faith He presents to us first of all so that we will accept it so our belief in Him will begin to grow. His precepts of faith are presented to us one by one in an appropriate order so that they can be built up one upon another so that our belief in Him will be solid and the decision we make about His faith will be positively accepted.

You wrote:Yes but these two offers are based upon different criteria. The giving of eternal life is based upon the granting of the gift of the fullness of the Holy Spirit upon our resurrection through our belief in YHWH and a position in the governement of the kingdom of YHWH is determined by our capabilities and our willingness to work to those capabilities through the obedience of good works of the Law to Him. And as mentioned before those same good works of the Law which is obedience to YHWH also has an indirect hand in how much we believe YHWH which results in the granting of salvation and eternal life.

You wrote:This is where I see your reasoning failing. If the death penalty is removed because we believe YHWH (through faith and works), we are justified through belief and we are given the ernest (deposit) of the Holy Spirit, what other option is there? Isn't it eternal life? Isn't that what the deposit of the Holy Spirit guarantees, eternal life, as long as we don't blaspheme it? Grams loves quoting this scripture ...

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in the Messiah, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in the Messiah.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Clearly, according to the scriptures, if we have been given the deposit of the Holy Spirit in this age, unless we blaspheme the Holy Spirit by giving it back to YHWH, we have our inheritance, righteous eternal life.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of YHWH, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of YHWH afresh, and put him to an open shame.
... and ...
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Further, and Grams, if you are listening in, this is written by a Jew ...

1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of YHWH hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not YHWH hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that YHWH gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that YHWH hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of YHWH hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of YHWH; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of YHWH.

You wrote:When I was a Protestant, I was taught that I was saved, now, in this age, if I believed in 'Jesus'. After coming out of Protestantism, I learned that salvation was not available to us until we had eternal life after the resurrection. How I understand it now is that we qualify for salvation and thus eternal life by believing YHWH which happens by putting to work, which is obedience to the Law, the faith that YHWH gives us. We are then given the Holy Spirit, baptism being part of putting our faith to work, which is our ticket into the kingdom. After that our obedience according to the Law of YHWH determines what responsibilities we will have in the government of the kingdom of YHWH. I just don't 'get' your separating from eternal life. I've read many of your writing on this for quite some time now looking for something that I might be missing on it but I just do not see the logic of it.

Consider ...

Joh 3:3 Yeshua answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of YHWH.
... and ...
1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Yeshua is the Messiah is born of YHWH ...

You wrote:So is the faith of YHWH and our belief in Him. It isn't just about keeping the Commandments. Its about receiving the faith of YHWH and working that faith into belief in YHWH by keeping the commandments. But the bottom line is believing YHWH through YaHshua. Even our overcoming of the world comes from belief in YHWH. ...

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Yeshua is the Son of YHWH?

However, there is another aspect of keeping the commandments that quoting just Mat 19:17 misses. The wider context of that scripture is ...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, YHWH: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Yeshua said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Yeshua said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mat 19:23 Then said Yeshua unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of YHWH.
Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Yeshua beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with YHWH all things are possible.
Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28 And Yeshua said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my names sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

First of all notice in these verses how the disciples equate entering the kingdom with being saved when they asked "Who then can be saved?" in regard to entering the kingdom. Notice also that the young man said that he HAD KEPT THE COMMANDMENTS and yet recognized himself that wasn't enough. YaHshua agreed with Him with an additional requirement. That requirement was that the young man had to follow Him. The young man couldn't do that. In other words, he didn't believe YaHshua. None of us do anything of our own free will unless we believe in doing it. The young man was given faith about eternal life directly from the Messiah but rejected it. He did not follow up through obeying that faith and therefore did not believe YaHshua. If he continued in that he wouldn't get righteousness, salvation or eternal life.

Even the righteousness of his keeping the commandments wouldn't get him eternal life because they were being done without belief in YHWH or in YaHshua. That is self-righteousness, not the righteousness of YHWH.

You wrote:But only when combined with faith to develop belief in YHWH.

Remember, only the possible officials are being selected at this time. I say possible because it is up to us to stay the course. Paul says the same thing and was concerned himself that after having preached and explained the process that he himself could lose out if he didn't stay the course himself.

You wrote:Have you ever noticed that the more you try to fight a temptation the more likely you are to do it. Now, consider the things that you do that are in keeping with the Law of YHWH that you have no problem doing. Why do you do them? Is it not because you believe they are to be done so you do them? I've found that some things I don't do even though I have the faith that they should be done, I don''t do them because I really don't believe YHWH about them. If I really believe an aspect of faith of YHWH I do it and it is NOT as struggle for me to do it. In those things I do keep about the Law I have totally overcome unbelief in YHWH. Those things I don't do yet is because of unbelief and it is that unbelief that I must overcome. Then my actions will follow. Just following the Law without believing YHWH is not good enough.

I noticed that the English Bible version you are quoting uses the term "Government of Elohim". I've not seen that in any of the English versions that I have. What version are you using here? All the versions I have either use the "kingdom of God" or the "kingdom of YHWH" except Young's which says "reign of God". Depending upon translator discretion any of them are correct but I find it curious that I have not come across any that use the word 'government' as yet other than your's. Interesting.

You wrote:Our differences faith lie not in whether or not we are to overcome to inheret eternal life but what it is that we must overcome. I have come to understand it is unbelief of YHWH where you believe it is sinning that we must overcome. We end up with the same result by overcoming sin but is overcoming sin without believing YHWH of any use to us other than contributing to our own self-righteousness? I've tried it and it just doesn't work. I continue to go back. I've been able to overcome more things especially recently be understanding that believing YHWH is the basis of overcoming. It still involves good works but it is not the type that results in self-righteousness as they had in the past.

You wrote:I don't believe YHWH will knowingly give someone the Holy Spirit and then take it back in this age. What possible good could that result in? I could see that as a possibility in the Age of Decision (Day of Judgment) but not in this age. That is just not the way of YHWH. What logic is in that? YHWH does nothing in vain. What was taken away from the fellow with the one talent was the one talent, not his life. The one talent represents faith and he rejected the faith of YHWH not the Holy Spirit. It is the rejection, or blaspheming, of the Holy Spirit that will cost us our eternal lives not lack of works. Lack of works in the presence of the Holy Spirit will prevent us from receiving more responsibilities in the kingdom.

You wrote:I didn't know that was a doctrine of the universalists so I didn't accept it from them. That's how I see it from the scriptures after getting some very old teachings out of the way. I still have reservations that is what will happen but it is a much higher expectation on my part now than it was even last year but I see the contigency plan of the third resurrection as being an option that could very well not be exercised.

Just like Adam had to make the choice, so we also must choose life or death. Adam had access to Eternal Life and lost out. He never got it and died. When Adam is brought back to life, which resurection do you think he will be in? I don't know the answer but he certainly wont be in the First. That only leaves the other two.

You wrote:What do make of ...

1Co 3:15 If any mans work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

You wrote:

But who is "any man"? I'm not sure now. Look at how this scripture is rendered in the CJB ...

1Cor 3:16 Don't you know that you people are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?
1Cor 3:17 So if anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him, and you yourselves are that temple.

The CJB is the only version I have that does it this way and I think it hinges upon the last 'you' in verse 16 in which one of my dictionaries indicates it is plural or at least could be considered plural rather than singular. The 'ye's' in the translation you quoted are not in the original languages and are understood based upon the last 'you'. The difference is then that are these verses talking about defiling ourselves personally or the Body of the Messiah, the Church? Interesting. Or is it someone outside of the Church doing the defiling.

Additionally the Greek word rendered "defile" in the translation you used is the exact same word rendered "destroy". The various English translations are all over the place with a wide range of renderings coming up with different meanings depending largely on the discretion of the translaators. It makes deciding what is the best way to consider these verses difficult. However.It seems the context of verses 16-17 is different than the context of verses 10-15. Hard to say for sure. I'm going to have to look at this a little more.

You wrote:Even greater than that your works of faith themselves say what you believe no matter what you say verbally.

You wrote:Again only if we believe YHWH when they are combined with the faith of YHWH that is given to us.

You wrote:A believer does what he believes. If he doesn't obey YHWH he does not really believe YHWH. It is faith that we ignore that we don't do. If we ignore faith we will never believe because it is the working of our faith that produces our belief in YHWH. Then we do what what YHWH wants us to do because we believe him.

You wrote:Up to that point where Abraham began to plunge the knife towards Isaac, he only had faith in YHWH. It was when YHWH stopped him from actually killing Isaac that Abraham believed. But the faith Abraham had was a very strong faith because YHWH had been preparing him with a precept of faith here and a precept there, testing Abraham in the areas that YHWH knew he would favourably respond so that Abraham's belief of those first precepts would be realized. The beliefs of those first basic precepts caused him to have a great faith in YHWH when it came time for the test of sacrificing Isaac. Abraham had learned to trust YHWH but he didn't have that full belief YHWH was looking for until YHWH stopped Him. Then YHWH considered Abraham to be justified by the proven faith, aka belief, that qualifies us for salvation and the eternal life that comes with it. The works has to comes before we get the Holy Spirit even though they don't get us the Holy Spirit unless we believe. Works without belief gets us nothing.

You wrote:I agree. The part we have to do is overcome unbelief. Then we will do what is necessary to obtain the position best suited for us in the governement of the kingdom of YHWH.

You wrote:If we don't so our part that means that we don't believe YHWH.

You wrote:Yes, we either believe YHWH or we don't about the various aspects of His faith in us. We do those things that we believe of Him. The other aspects of the faith of YHWH in us we reject and do not believe Him in it. So so those aspect of His faith in us that we don't believe negate those things that we do believe. That's up to YHWH. I really don't see Him giving the Holy Spirit to anyone in this age that He knows will reject it.

You wrote: Apparently in these scriptures the concensus of many is that the "children of the kingdom" refers to the Israelites who think they are automatically 'in the kingdom' because of ancestry. The ones coming from east and west are Gentiles. So this outer darkness is not the same as reserved for evil spirit beings. It would be the grave or those Israelties who survive the tribulation and go into the Millenium and then realizing that they rejected the faith of the kingdom of YHWH and missed out being part of the government of that kingdom during that age.

You wrote:They going into the outer darkness of the grave.

You wrote:I don''t think it happens that way but I need to study more about it. There is much more going on during the Millenium it seems to me than what I was taught in WCG and what is currently being taught in the current CoG organization.

You wrote:I've left the vast majority my Protestant teachings behind about salvation. What I believe now is virtually the opposite. Our difference is not that great. You have decided to separate salvation from eternal life and I understand them to be the same thing. Our works according to my understanding of the scriptures cannot and do not produce salvation and/or eternal life directly. There is absolutely nothing we can do to save ourselves or give ourselves eternal life. Not even YaHshua could do that for Himself and He was inherently righteous just by His works alone where we will never be in this age. We can only be righteous like Him in this age through faith, in the same way He was righteous by faith, combined with works, which produces in us the belief in YHWH that YHWH considers to be the justification that leads us to His righteousness. Keeping the commandments does not get us eternal life directly. They are only used by YHWH to determine or level of responsibility in the government of the kingdom of YHWH.

You wrote:If that were the case then only YaHshua would be the winner thus eliminating the rest of us. The judgment has only to do with the responsibilities of individuals in the kingdom and not their inheritance. The inheritance is determined strictly upon belief in YHWH (which results indirectly from faith and works).

You wrote:We are given the Holy Spirit because YHWH gave us the appropriate amount of faith at the appropriate time so that we could make an appropriate decision about accepting it. YHWH will not give the Holy Spirit to anyone in this age unless He knows for sure that they believe Him. He knows that better than even we know it ourselves. On the other hand the faith YHWH gives us, if rejected results in the punishment of the first death. Sometimes we are given faith and we reject it at first. then we might reject it a second time or even a third or fourth time or more. That does not result in our spiritual death, just our physical death. Over the very recent past I have come to realize that in the past what I was thinking was the Holy Spirit in else was not necessarily so. I see instead that it was their working with the faith of YHWH in them but deciding to reject it because it was to tough for them. They rejected the faith where perhaps others think they might have rejected the Holy Spirit. By rejecting the faith they never got to the stage of belief in YHWH at all so they weren't offered the Holy Spirit even if they may have seemed to have repented and even been baptised. But the belief in YHWH was not really there because they did not do His commandments. ...

1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of YHWH abideth for ever.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antimessiah shall come, even now are there many antimessiahs; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

You wrote:I don't think everyone who is called to be in the First resurrection accepts that calling so they are not accepted. Only those who are accepted are believers of YHWH. Not everyone in the Church is a believer; believers don't leave, only unbelievers leave like the scripture says. Those who reject faith in this age will be in the second resurrection. Only those who reject the Holy Spirit will be in the third resurrection. But then again, why on earth in this age would YHWH give the Holy Spirit to someone he knew would reject it. No sense in that, is there?

You wrote:No I didn't. You said it first. No wait a minute. Perhaps King Solomon or one of his cohorts said it first.

What does any of this have to do with overcoming? The main thing we need to overcome is ourselves and our own limited beliefs.

Phanton Mystic, I agree that we must grow from our own limited beliefs. However we can not leave behind all we were taught in the past. It is obvious that while Thinker and DCinC have basicly the same beliefs, their background does show a different emphasis. DCinC because of his protestant background finds it hard to leave behind the teaching he received on the justification of faith. Thinker because of his Catholic background finds it more easy to accept that works are necessary.

I am sure that they both will say they overcome their past but in reality we are all influence by our past.

Hi Sleek Phantom Mystic:

You asked: This is a very pertinent question Sleek. With that last post being so long-winded I can see how that train of thought might get lost.

But what it boils down to is how we understand the scriptures in terms of what it is we must overcome and hence how that relates to the Creator within.

thinker's position, if I'm understanding it properly is that it is evil works against the Law of YHWH that we must overcome. While I understand that is certainly an aspect to what the scriptures say we must be overcoming, it is more than that, which leads into your next you next comment ... In my post, if you care to have another look at it, you might notice that this is what I am saying in effect. I have the terms turned around in my discussion though compared to how you have commented on it but it essentially means the same.

You say we must overcome our "beliefs". I essentially said in my post that we must overcome our 'unbeliefs'. Same thing depending upon how you choose your point of reference. The scriptures talk about looking at the example of 'unbelief' that the ancient Israelties exhibited in the wilderness when they failed to believe YHWH and turned away from Him. We are admonished not to follow their example of unbelief of YHWH.

So to put it into your frame of reference, we should take the beliefs that we have that are contrary to the Creator within and ditch them because we don't believe It unless we change our beliefs to match It. If we are to come into sync with the Creator within, then we must overcome those beliefs that we hold, which is unbelief of the Creator within, and change them accordingly.

If we change our beliefs, which are unbeliefs of the Creator within, then we will DO those things according to how the Creator within would desire us to do. It is in that way that we overcome in the way that thinker is explaining, that of overcoming evil works. There isn't much difference in our stances but enough that we can compare notes and learn from one another according to the Creator within each of us all.

Hi aus22:

You wrote: Or one could say that we try to hang onto that which appears to be the truth of YHWH no matter what the source of it is. The teaching of justification by faith did not originate from the Protestants. It originated from the scriptures. It is also taught in the various CoG organizations that I currently associate and it still appears in all the English Bible translations that I have read. I don't think it would be a good thing to leave behind.

That being said though I understand it differently than how the Protestants taught it. The Protestants that I was once associated with taught that faith through justification negated the Law of 'God' and so it wasn't necessary to follow unless it lined up with their doctrines, such as we should not steal. But they also taught that if we willfully stole things (rather than just 'willingly') and continued to do so we were still 'saved' by justification if we professed belief in 'Jesus'. The problem was 'belief' was not clearly defined. It was kind of a fuzzy notion based mostly on feelings of 'love'.

After leaving Protestantism, I've come to learn that the faith we get from YHWH must be accompanied by works (obedience to YHWH and His Law) before we can truly believe him. So while it isn't our works that directly gain our justification and hence salvation, works is just as much a part of salvation as is justification. Faith, works, justification, overcoming unbelief, and so on are all part of salvation. They must all be present for us to be saved.

Also, not any one of them by themselves, especially works, will gain us salvation and our hope of eternal life which is part of salvation. It is the wroughting together of these elements that cause us to believe YHWH so that He will consider us to be righteous by justification in this age so that we can be made righteous just like Him in a future age when we receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit so that we will never sin again. In this age we only receive a deposit of the Holy Spirit, unlike YaHshua who received its fullness as a man and didn't sin, so we can still sin when we do not overcome unbelief of YHWH.

So I don't think it is a good idea to drop the teaching of justification by faith because it is one of the building blocks of our coming to believe YHWH which is how we are saved and receive eternal righteous life. Good works is the other major building block in the process of developing belief in YHWH. They are both necessary. Faith is another. Without any of these elements in our fight for righteousness and the salvation and eternal life it brings, all we have