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#278250 - 08/11/08 01:28 AM Re: War in Europe! [Re: lizbeth]
Elena Offline
Sci/Tech Moderator

Registered: 07/10/05
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Quote:
But, let's face it, isn't it really all about the oil pipeline?


Exactly so.
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#278259 - 08/11/08 10:53 AM Re: War in Europe! [Re: Elena]
Lawmage Offline
member

Registered: 07/03/03
Loc: varies from day to day
Quote:
Elena wrote: South Ossetia and Abkhazia will never be a part of Georgia, they will be independent.
I rather seriously doubt that, Elena. They will NOT be independent. They will be absorbed into Russia and become Russians. Talk of preserving their independence is so much nonsense. Russia fully intended to incorporate South Ossetia and Abkhazia into Russia and this invasion of Georgia is the pretext they are suing for that rather blatant land grab.
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#278261 - 08/11/08 11:07 AM Re: War in Europe! [Re: Lawmage]
Lawmage Offline
member

Registered: 07/03/03
Loc: varies from day to day
Well, Russia is broadening the conflict. Russia sent several thousand troops into Abkhazia on Saturday. Those troops have invaded Georgia, attacking the town of Senaki and occupying a Georgian military base in the town. Meanwhile, Russian fighter bombers continue to roam over Georgia proper attacking both military and civilian targets. Russia steadfastly refuses to return to the status quo ante or to accept a cease fire. This refusal rather clearly gives the lie to Russian claims it is merely seeking to "protect the people of South Ossetia." Clearly Russia fully intends to seize South Ossetia and Abkhazia and incorporate them into Russia itself.
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#278263 - 08/11/08 11:08 AM Re: War in Europe! [Re: Lawmage]
Elena Offline
Sci/Tech Moderator

Registered: 07/10/05
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Quote:
They will be absorbed into Russia and become Russians.


1. They were being parts of Russia for about 200 years and haven't turned into Russians.
2. If they would absorbed by Russia, they'll hate Her, but if they would be independed, but protected by Russia and if it would be an enemy nearby, they'll love Russia with all their hearts.

Btw, why did Georgians kill all those civilians? Why did they attack peacekeepers? They could just occupy the land.
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#278264 - 08/11/08 11:14 AM Re: War in Europe! [Re: Lawmage]
Elena Offline
Sci/Tech Moderator

Registered: 07/10/05
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Quote:
Russia sent several thousand troops into Abkhazia on Saturday. Those troops have invaded Georgia, attacking the town of Senaki and occupying a Georgian military base in the town.


Yes. Russia didn't guard Ossetinians, so She tries to protect Abkhazians. Btw, a part of Abkhazia is still occupied by Georgia.

Quote:
Meanwhile, Russian fighter bombers continue to roam over Georgia proper attacking both military and civilian targets.


Meanwhile, Russian forces shot down &#1057;&#1091;-25, which was bombing Tskhinval again not long ago.
What civilian targets?
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#278267 - 08/11/08 12:20 PM Re: War in Europe! [Re: Lawmage]
Chocolategenii Offline
Domestic Affairs Moderator

Registered: 10/03/06
Loc: California
Originally by: Lawmage
What is interesting to me is seeing how this attempt by Russia to reassert its dominance in the region will be met. Certainly the US and the Europe Union have reason to be concerned and have interests they will wish to protect, however, they are not the primary focus.


War between Russia and Georgia orchestrated from USA

By Pravda

Russian officials believe that it was the USA that orchestrated the current conflict. The chairman of the State Duma Committee for Security, Vladimir Vasilyev, believes that the current conflict is South Ossetia is very reminiscent to the wars in Iraq and Kosovo.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20469.htm



It isn't accurate to say that the USA "orchestrated" the current conflict, but certainly actions of the Bush administration contributed to it. Of course, the conflict between Russia and Georgia over territory and autonomy goes back to the 18th century, but more recently, the Bush administration knew well that if it encouraged Kosovo's declaration of independence from Serbia, Russia would do the same with respect to South Ossetia and Abkhazia. ...And flirting with Georgia about admission to NATO emboldened Georgia to take actions in those provinces that it knew would antagonize Russia, like sending Georgian troops into South Ossetia and killing Russian civilians there. A defter foreign policy would not have taken any position on Kosovo and would not have been trying to woo Georgia. After all, the U.S. should try to avoid any major conflicts with Russia, which is still a nuclear superpower, while it does not really need fealty from either Georgia or Kosovo.
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#278274 - 08/11/08 01:35 PM War in Georgia! [Re: Elena]
RNG Offline
veteran member

Registered: 09/16/02
Loc: Atlantic Fringe. Terra.
Like Turkey Russia straddles Europe and Asia, I think it's broadly accepted that the Urals marks the geographic boundary in Russia, for Turkey it's a watery boundary...which leaves the Caucasus as at best on the corner of Europe, rather than 'In' Europe.
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#278275 - 08/11/08 01:38 PM Re: War in Europe! [Re: Lawmage]
RNG Offline
veteran member

Registered: 09/16/02
Loc: Atlantic Fringe. Terra.
It suits the siloviki run Russian state perfectly to have Georgia de-stabilised by the S. Ossetia/Abkahzia slivers, much as Transdniestra is a festering sore of kleptocracy.

There is no advantage having them as part of Russia.
_________________________
Grace Peace Love Life be yours always

In God we live and move and have our being

Tho' he slay me yet will I praise him

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#278288 - 08/11/08 08:54 PM Re: War in Europe! [Re: RNG]
aus22 Offline
veteran member

Registered: 11/19/01
Loc: Melbourne. Australia
I will leave it to Elena to get the local aspects of the war. However there are wider issues. The USA has been acting recently that they can do what they like in Central Europe. Building pipelines and missles bases was sure to antaganise the Russians.

The attacks on South Ossetia and Ablahzia are part of Russia drawing a line in the sand and telling USA to back off. Whether these territories will be of any use to Russia, taking them back into the Russia fold is a sign that Russia has stop allowing its borders to be absorbed into the American sphere of influence.The reluntance of any Western nation to give military support to Geogia does show at least in this part of the world Russia is supreme.


Edited by aus22 (08/11/08 08:58 PM)

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#278305 - 08/12/08 01:35 AM Re: War in Europe! [Re: Chocolategenii]
Elena Offline
Sci/Tech Moderator

Registered: 07/10/05
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Quote:
Of course, the conflict between Russia and Georgia over territory and autonomy goes back to the 18th century,


No. The matter of the fact is that Georgia was "in South Ossetia boots". Iran and Turkey constantly attacked Georgia. These Islamic states threatened to eliminate the entire population of Georgia. In this situation the Tsar of Georgia (Bagrationi) made a decision to lose his title and join to Russia.


Edited by Elena (08/12/08 01:41 AM)
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