Hi DC,

You commented,



Aus22 commented today in "Man's Spiritual Needs" :



I immediately thought of changing my handle to Evil Bird!

Your post certainly demonstrated the difficulties involved in interpreting the bible, given the translation problems and the different understanding that people of the time had of their world. At least your interpretation is not so obviously at odds with our scientific knowledge.

I thought Helice's description of the world view that was prevalent pre-science was very well done and probably fairly accurate (satire notwithstanding). God would have had a hard time communicating a reality such as a you see it to Man at that time and would have had to really dumb-down his explanation.

Much of your explanation revolves around God actually "naming" things as opposed to "making" things. Interesting. The bible seems to make much of the power of words (e.g., the WORD or God's name, etc). Today we think of words as only labels for things, rather that somehow having power in themselves.

You said,
I've had similar experiences when having to read a good (just a good, not The Good book several times. There is always something that you missed. The complication of having to read the Bible is that you need a couple of bookshelves of reference materials that are largely in conflict with each other, That does put me off from another reading, however.

wanderingspryte: You asked...

That's easy. Let's not talk about the bible at all and we could circumvent the subject.

If you recall, we ended up discussing which day the Messiah was resurected on. Selene says it is the 1st day of the week in honor of the "sun-god" and the scripture say it has to be the sabbath. The High Sabbath is also mentioned as a reference point. The only sign that proves He is the Messaih is being in His grave for 72 hours. Are you saying this is not true and waht do you use to corroborate your view?

Then Ray and I were discussing the creation week and which day was actually the first day and the last day and if time was lost. Ray would have us believe we don't know which day is the sabbath because of 10 days being removed from the Roman calender.

The months were all altered but the number of days in the week were always seven days, with the sabbath ending the week.

You might say the "sabbath" is the reference point. Do you have a problem with the sabbath being used by God for reference points? It's "His" test Commandmennt and seems to be a sore point with you.

It's the Fourth Commandment and the Messiah said not one little part of any Commandment is going to be removed including the Fourth One.

Obviously you don't keep the High Day mentioned in the scriptures regarding the week the Messiah was killed, yet it is the clue that reveals He was killed on a Wednesday of that fateful week rather then the hoax of the Good Friday tradition. That means He was resurected back to life by His Father YaHWeH on the sabbath, which seems to be a sore spot for you. How come?

Just a little reminder, if you don't keep the Commandments, you can't get what is offered by YaHWeH, so what's the "beef". Look at your calender (the Roman one), which day is the first day of the week? Which is the day YaHWeH made Holy?

What's the problem? Are you saying we shouldn't discuss the things of God in a Forum all about God?

The very first thing that get's so-called religious people upset is having to keep YaHWeH's Laws and the one Law that sticks in peoples throat like a barbed fish bone, is the Sabbath.

Do you keep the Passover or Easter, and why? What is your basis for keeping either of these days? Your answer reveals who you follow.

Creation week has seven days and light was allowed to shine through on the first day. The sun was already there, but how many posts were made to deride the creation as depicted in Genesis in this thread?

It seems we have a number of people who instead of trying to understand what the scriptures say, are doing their best to ridicule them, .... for what purpose?

Some "churches" say this earth was created 6,000 years ago but YaHWeH says it was created in the beginning when the Universe was made. Who is right?

YaHWeH says it was destroyed. Who do you think destroyed it? Who was in charge? Who wants to do away with everything YaHWeH created?

It seems to me you are siding with the destroyer if you are so against the "sabbath" that YaHWeH created.

-thinker-

Grams: You said...


Paul was refering to a man who started Gnosticism and mixed it with a certain type of "christianity". This man was very famous and was known by everyone from the least to the greatest. His name is Simon the Magus.

There is only one way to be "saved" from the death penalty and that is getting the Blood of the Messiah to cover your sins. It is YaHWeH the Father of the Messiah who does this for you when you go before "Him" to get the sins removed.

This Simon the Magus said otherwise and declared, he himself, as the Messiah. He started out in the Asia Minor which is where Galatia is. This man started the counterfeit "christianity".

Why did you put up this post in the quote above?

-thinker-

In nature, lightening is used to start fires...and "cleanse" out the old brush so new forest can grow...

Helice: If I was just perusing this site and saw your post, I would come to the conclusion you were anti-God and Christian, considering how much effort you take to deride the scriptures.

Not that "christians" actually use the bible, because they don't.

Most just go with the flow without checking anything out. Just take the word "Love" for instance. That's all that is required...right?

Your pointing out the word "firmament", that it is firm, that it is solid.

Certainly when your speaking of the dirt and rock under our feet, it is solid. How would you describe the air or water that is part of out environement? They are also called firmament?

You said...


So I looked it up but I get a somewhat different view then you do. Though the word is derived from another word which means to beat out or to shape, like in creating a piece of art the word firmament is used to give the impression it is an "expanse" ....

Strong's Hebrew Lexicon Search Results

Result of search for "7554":

7549 raqiya` raw-kee'-ah from 7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:--firmament.

7554 raqa` raw-kah' a primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):--beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

7555 riqqua` rik-koo'-ah from 7554; beaten out, i.e. a (metallic) plate:--broad.

The impression I get is that the different parts of the atmosphere, water and earth were all shaped by the artist in question and each aspect is an "expanse" or "firmament".

Your view of God as sitting on a throne looking down like an evil personage is akin to the phylosophy of Gnostics which the congregation at Rome adopted..... "God sat in a throne at the very tippy-top of it, and peered dwon at us through the clouds. The whole thing sat upon some sort of ill-described "foundations" (i.e. "unto the foundations of the eath"). "

YaHWeH, when speaking to Job said this....

Job 38:4-6
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;


The earth just sits in space seemingly without foundation, and it never varies from the way it was created. Even though it was destroyed by the "destroyer", it still remained in orbit where is should be.

You said...

I think the inference is to the Law and the Church. David said this....

Psalm 118:21-23
21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

23 This is Yahweh's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

Matthew then quotes this scripture....

Matthew 21:42
42 Yahshua saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is YaHWeH's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Paul then quotes this...

Ephesians 2:19-21

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of Elohim;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in Yahweh:

The Church is the Temple which are "the called out ones" (not a building or corporate organization) and the Messiah is the chief Conerstone.

I think you mixed the two up which are different conerstones.

You said...

I don't know where you get this from, since the waters spoken of was on this earth, not the whole Universe. In Genesis 1:2 it apperas the whole earth was covered in water such was the destruction.

You said...

Yoah!!!!! Now I'm dodging "the bullets" of untruth amd mis-quotation.
If you actually look at the scripture, not only did it rain with a downpour but also great water spouts releasong the water below the surface. Apparently it didn't rain prior to the flood and a mist watered the whole earth, so the climate was different. After the Flood there was rain instead of mist so that the refraction of sunlight caused the rainbow. The rainbow is a sign that YaHweH used to show "His" promise "He" wont do this again.

How high the mountains were prior to the Flood is another matter. The way you make it look in your post, is that there isn't enough water on this earth to flood the highest mountains... "I'm not sure where all the water drained to afterwards, unless maybe it all just poured off the edges of the flat Earth, which sounds plausible and likely."

The Ark was in the water for ten months, and since the climate is different and mankind only lives on an average of seventy years, then things are very different then they were before the Flood. Mountain ranges help to make the climate on this earth and regulates were we can live comfortably to produce our crops.

Just the melting snow and a few thunderstorms floods great areas of the earth as seen this past year. Just a few days and great storms are formed dropping a deluge of water floodimg large areas. If you add the water stored in the ice caps, which is up to a mile thick or more and a possible tilt in the earths axis, everything moves including the tectonic plates.

However YaHWeh did it, it flooded the whole earth and the high "hills" were covered by 15 cubits.

Some religions don't take this literally yet it seems to be very precise as to the depth.

You said...

Your disdain for YaHWeH is showing up and also the scriptures. The tower of babel was a temple built to honor the "god" of this world. Nimrod the famous dictator who became the "sun-god" instigated this religion along with the help of his mother/wife known as Ishtar (pronunced Easter) in some countries. She was Semiramis married to Cush who died and she re-married her son. She became the Moon goddess of erotic love and fertility and her symbols are the rabbit and eggs.

These two people are the origins of all the religions of the earth taking people away from the knowledge of YaHWeH. Your poking fun at YaHWeH the God of the Old Testament reveals what branch of Gnosticism you believe in. Well... maybe you believe in both branches but we will see when I post my post on the origins of Gnosticism and the beginning of the false "christian" church by your reaction.

One of the seven wonders of the world were the hanging gardens of Baybylon an huge city with walls so high and wide it was impenatrable or so the builders thought.

But it is YaHWeH who controls who is going to be ruler and the people get what they deserve, just as we see today.

The religion of Babylon that these two "gods" started, is alive and well and can be recognized by its doctrines.

You said....


Interesting to note, YaHWeH is going to give the Universe to "His" children, yet mankind is trying to get it without God in the picture. So far mankinds feeble attempt to get into space shows the brains they have to achieve these short little jaunts and at very great expence when billions are surviving on only $1.00 per day and many more on even less.

Yet you think YaHWeH can't flood the earth with the water that is here on it and in the air as vapour or in the aquafirs under the surface or in the frozen ice caps.

Beats me why your so against the Bible or YaHWeH for that matter? It must be the lies you absorbed as truth.

-thinker-

I believe there are plenty of "lies" and false beliefs that we all can be affected by.

I even see you spreading one yourself. When you say, most Christians dont use their Bible, you are wrong. Some might call it a lie, which I have no problem with.

Many Christians are a different levels of understanding the Scripture. Just becase some know more than others doesn't mean they don't use their Bible.

But, of course very few will reach the "level" you have obtained. But that doesnt mean they don't use their Bible. In fact, Im convinced that those who do use their Bible will be protected from the "level" you sing from.

And, I don't think "use" is correct in describing your efforts with the Bible. Its more like "abuse".

Lees: Thanks for your reply. You brought up some interesting points. I jnow you to be a user of the Bible and so am I. We do differ in our beliefs and I'm wondering why?

You said....

I probably still have false beliefs but am correcting them as I find out. If you see me in a false belief, won't you show me the way so I am not decieved and help me out?

Concerning the words you used in the quote above, are the majority using the scriptures for their beliefs in the doctrines they follow?

Let's try a different one then the sabbath since it is a sore point with many of our members.

Could you show me where in the scriptures we should be keeping Easter or Christmas as religious Holy Days? It's the middle of summer so people shouldn't get all bent out of shape over this subject. Also while in this subject, why is it most of Christianity doesn't keep YaHWeH's Holy Days that He set out for our good? they actually reveal YaHWeH's plan for all of humanity. Seems to me if they reveal YaHWeH's paln, everyone would be glad to keep them, don't you think?

You said....

Do I have a "level"? Since you recognize there is levels, what is it that makes a difference? From your tone, you don't agree with what I say because it is obvious you think I am wrong. That's OK, but please tell why you think I am wrong. Let's both use the Bible to help each other out, so we can end up on the same level.

You said...

That's a fair objective point of view. What exactly is it about the scriptures that could be used in such a way it is abusive??????

It seems to me a person believes it or they don't. Or maybe it's a perception of what is said when it reality it means something else.

I personally believe we should follow all of the words of the Messiah. Is that abusive? After all, this is Jesus Talk, isn't it?

-thinker-

Ive told you before where you are wrong. Im not interested in helping you or bringing you to any level. Just as you are not interested in learning anything or bringing anyone else to any level. Though you try and come across as one so teachable.

I don't blame you for wanting to ignore the Sabbath. Since, if I remember right, the last time, we found you to be a Sabbath breaker. Yet we still want others to keep it. Don't we. Yes, better ignore the Sabbath.

Or those lost tribes. If I remember right, we went all the way to Ireland with some of your claims, but then you left off. I wonder why.

So, whats summer got to do with getting bent out of shape? I guess your telling me your doctrine changes with the seasons. That appears very fair weather. I would suspect.

Oh yes I know, you want to follow all the Messiahs words. I know this because you told me. And told me. And told me. I wonder about those who always have to tell me that. Usually that means they really just want to follow some certain doctrine that appeals to them. But that wouldn't be true of you...would it.

And since your big on keeping the Law and commandments, I have to ask; How is it coming? Are you doing better with the Sabbath? How about the rest of the Law? Have we broken any lately? Of course, it only takes one you know.

Back to the subject...

High temperature kill germs and viruses...hence a fever during certain illnesses.
Cleansing the body of the foreign enemy.

Lees: Considering I'm an old man and not many brain molecules left and you say....

I'm disheartened. What was it you said I was wrong about?

You said...

You mean all of the quotations from the bible didn't teach anyone anything? I am teachable and I did change in several things if you would pay attention.

I did learn some things and for sure one of those things is we should all keep the Commandments because the Messiah said so.

You said...

I'm ready to speak on the sabbath but as you noticed, almost everyone is not accepting the sabbath. Maybe I am imperfect on keeping it, but I am doing my best to keep it as depicted in the scriptures. How do you fare in that department?

What was it again that you said I needed improvement on in keeping it? You are aware the Messiah said to keep the Commandments so shouldn't we all be doing our best in doing so? For some strange reason most of Christianity thinks they can just ignore keeping it, which is not what the Messiah said to do. The Messiah came to reveal what His Father's will is and you will find what the Father wants us to do in [Exo. 20:3-17]. You said Christainity does look at the Bible so they must know what the Ten Commandments are, don't you think?

The Ten Commandments show us what sin is and each person should repent if they are breaking any of them which includes the sabbath.

You said...

Did I get side tracked on that? Why didn't you say something? The Ten Tribes did go someplace and there is a lot of information in this regard, and they did end up on the west coast of Europe. Each tribe is now a nation no different then the tribe of Judah has a home base today in Palestine...for now, though they are scattered throughout all of the nations of the earth.

But I gather you don't believe this and what would be your reason?

Let me ask you a strange question, who were the Greek people? From where did they come from? the Greco Macedonian Empire was led by Alexander the Great. What is their ancestry?

In reagards to Christmas and Easter, You said...

You really can't mean that???? "Tis not the season to be jolly" so no-one should get offended, nor is it time to gather Easter eggs and eat chocolate rabbits in honor of the Fertility goddess.

You had said Christians use their Bible so I have to ask, where does it say to keep these pagan "holi-days"? God tells us we should keep the Seven Holy Days "He" made Holy and Paul teaches us how to keep some of them properly, so how come Christianity doesn't do as God says but in fact do the opposit of what is stated in the Bible scriptures?

Your the one who said Christianity uses the bible. Show me.

You said...

Your really cute with that statement. If I fail in any area regarding the Commandments, do point it out. I can change. His teaching should be the Church's doctrines and the ones you keep should be the same ....right? I'm for keeping all of the doctrines are you?

You said....

Not if your under Grace which is why the penalty is removed. Grace is the removal of the death penalty to those who would enter a Covenant or Contract with YaHWeh.

No.... I'm not perfect yet but like Paul said learn to master yourself so you can win the prize.

Paul said to "overcome" those sins that continually beseige us. Fight with all of your might ro conquer sin. I encourage everyone to do the same and of you fail try again. You evnetually will succeed with YaHWeH's help through "His" Holy Spirit.

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=overcometh&version1=9&searchtype=all

So if your going to overcome sin, you then must learn to keep the Law. Haven't you read this in scripture?

-thinker-