I disagree with a lot of Christians about issues of sexuality.



I disagree that God does not change. It seems rather clear to me that He does. Consider, for example, the Father telling His son after He was baptized, "This is my Son in whom I am well-pleased." For the Father to express His pleasure was a change from not expressing it. Now, I don't think you mean that kind of change. You mean a change in essential character, as in love, or transcendence or something. I accept that, although you have to notice the mass murdering and genocide of the Old Testament and ask how that is loving. I've been around Christians long enough to know they would say that is loving because it is just...I'm not sure how just that is.

I haven't read that. I used common sense to arrive at the conclusion that God changes. He is not immutable and He is not impassible (meaning He doesn't experience emotions). God gets mad; He hates things; He loves things; He gets sad; He is compassionate; He works; He creates; He changes His mind...How can you say that He doesn't change, unless you're talking about His essential character in which case you should tell me that so I don't misunderstand you.



You're right about us living in a sex-soaked culture, but do keep in mind that sex sells. Sex feels good, so of course it's going to sell. I remember on one American Dad episode Stan made up the pass phrase "I hate orgasms" or something to that effect. It's funny because it's true. Who is ever going to say that they hate orgasms??? Thus, I don't think people are necessarily confused by liking sex. It's quite natural. It's Christians who are confused when they condemn masturbation as a sin or say that loving homosexuals are going to Hell. The Bible doesn't even mention homosexuality as we know it today. Paul had no idea that some people are attracted to their same sex. He didn't realize that many people are probably born that way. All Paul knew was that heterosexual men raped other heterosexual men, not even primarily for pleasure usually, but out of hostility as in war. Furthermore, some pagans practiced sodomy in their rituals, and there were male prostitutes as well as male pedophiles in Greek society.

I am progressive. I will tell you that much because I do not see the English Bible as very accurate about some matters. Homosexuality is one of those matters. No version is just right. That's why one has to learn the Greek and Hebrew as well as Aramaic to help them best interpret. Nobody just "reads" their Bible. Nobody is immune from interpreting. The Bible is not easy to understand because of the confusion that centuries of distance from the events have caused. Even trying to understand the meanings of the original language words is very difficult at times. Sometimes it's proven impossible to nail it down for sure. This is the case with words like "malakoi" and "arsenokotai." But notice that Paul did not use the standard word for a male homosexual here. He used words that we don't fully know the meaning to. I'm just saying that you have been sold a bill of goods by shoddy English translations with agendas and people's homophobias to satisfy. I've done a great deal of research on both sides of this issue and can debate with you much more if you'd like, but hopefully you understand that the Bible is silent about loving homosexual relationships. It is concerned with RAPE and with IDOLATRY, not same-sex orientation, and not same-sex love.



I have a problem with your misleading statements. You presume here that you do not try to justify yourself. I believe everyone does, but I am just willing to admit it. No matter how hard I try, I know smoking weed kills brain cells. I shouldn't do it. But sex is a different issue. The most respected medical opinions are unanimous that masturbation brings NO harm besides that of the attitude of the masturbator. That is, all the guilt that one has been taught to have by repressing their God-given sexuality. It's denying something integral to you. Don't you know that our bodies will be resurrected? Don't you know that God made us TOTALLY good, and Jesus took on flesh, and redeemed it COMPLETELY? We are mind, soul, and BODY. Why do Christians keep neglecting this crucial aspect of what constitutes a human person?

You think that pornography is such a heinous sin, but is it? Did you know that this is another misunderstood part of Scripture? Pornography is not bad, it's the person that uses pornography that decides whether to use it responsibly or not. Jesus did not condemn lust. He condemned covetousness.

A lot of people think I'm just one person, but there's a host of other very liberal Christians fed up with unreflective lies. My goal is to make the world a better place in the name of God. That's what I believe He wants.

I HONESTLY believe that homosexuality is not condemned by the Bible. How could it be? They didn't even know what it was back then. Rape and idolatry are condemned in the Bible, not loving homosexuality. Hopefully you understand my point. I have found that most people are not interested in changing their ideas. Or if they ever do get around to it, it is very slow going. It's frustrating trying to convince people that homosexuality is not a sin according to the Bible which is utterly silent on it. I just wish people would accept other people for who they are when they've done nothing wrong.

-Chris

Hebrews 1
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

Malachi 3
6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. 7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD Almighty.
"But you ask, 'How are we to return?'

Chris, it is not easy to understand. Do you think Jesus in Revelation is loving when he returns with a sword coming out of his mouth and brings his wrath down on millions in immediate death? The Lord has not changed. The difference is that we are now in the age of Grace and in the Old Testament it was a different time and a different age.


The common theme I seem to get from your posts Chris is a sort of denial about sinful activity. You seem to justify and approve of some questionable behavior and move away from the reality of judgement upon sin. That is really the key issue in why the Lord seemed to be harsher in the OT than what we see in the NT. Christ took the penalty for all the worlds sins on the cross and at this very moment is interceding for us at the right hand of the Father. That has changed the "law" that stated that wrath would be brought down upon us if we did not meet up to it. Additionally the Lord was dealing with his chosen people in the Old Testament Israel and those outside of Israel were not considered to be bloodline chosen at that point.

If you go back to the Garden of Eden you will see a loving being who created and blessed and gave the entire Garden to Adam and Eve with incredible freedom to do what they wanted.

God continued to bless and love if the Isrealites stayed out of sin and did as commanded. Even today there is a skewed view that things in reference to sin have changed. They have not. Make no mistake one day the Lord will return and he will not do it as the lamb of God. Every knee will bow and every human will stand before the judgement seat. Some will be dragged before him and will be judged under the wrath that comes from the law of God. That is why the atonement of Christ is so important and why God desires all men to come to repentance. If they do not then they stand judgement without that atonement.

God does not change. We change.




He is the same Chris. He does not change. He is a perfect being. He is all knowing and has nothing left to learn. His creation as in us might continue to learn and evolve, but he is all knowing and all powerful.

He does not change.



Just because it feels good does not mean we should do it. The quicker humans learn that feelings and emotions are not things we should measure morality through the better off we all be. All sin is gratifying in the short term. Pornography feeds the flesh also and would be considered fun to the flesh, but it reaps destruction internally and within the family.

Paul was very aware that men being men was unatural and spoke on it here. He calls a indescent and perverted act.

Romans 1:25-27
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.


Paul states that God gave them over to their own lusts and uncleanliness through same sex relations. Very clearly here without a doubt Paul knows that this is and is saying it is absolutely wrong. Those that want to spin this up in some other way are in denial Chris.




Christ I am beginning to see the same pattern in your debates with things like Masturbationa nd Homosexuality. You seem to be very quick to justify certain behaviors and always argue the same thing. You either say the bible is silent on it or when it does say something you say we have been sold a bill of goods through translation errors.

I think the real issue here is that you are just not facing the truth on sin.

I know it is not easy, but a nonrepentant and justifying heart will lead to hardening and bieing desesatized to the world. Then you will one day wake up and not be convicted by the Law and will no longer realize what is wrong or right.



Chris, I assure you that I know a thing or two about sexual issues. I have spent years in a group that meets for lust and pornography addictions. I have both given testimony and listened to hundreds of hours of testimony from men caught up in various addictions and struggles with lust problems.

Sex is tricky because it was created by God to be good and right.. between man and woman in the marriage bed. That is pure and sex is absolutely beautiful and approved by God.

Sexual impulses and urges that men get are healthy, but it is not healthy to act out in any way that we desire and that is why we have the Laws of God to guide us. Satans goal is to pervert that and to get people to focus on their feelings and desires and justify them, then the gratification begins and sometimes in an unhealthy manner. Men begin to move towards masturbation and pornography and sleeping with multiple partners and then the perversions begin.

Sexual intercourse between married men and women is beautiful and right. God led.



Isnt that what I just said. Healthy natural desire is fine. It is not the act of taping two people have sex that is bad per sey. It is the act of doing it to make money off it, objectify women and show it to the general public that would cause other people to view it in lust and act out that is a sin, both on the creator of the pornographies side and the people watching it and supporting the business.

Shooting a gun at a target is not a sin. Neither is using a Gun in battle to defend a country.

However, using a gun to rob a store or shoot someone with malicious intent not in self defense in an attempt to harm or kill them is absolutely against the law of both God and Man.

You have to logically look at these things and apply wisdom Chris.



So what Chris? Do you think numbers matter when it comes to truth and right?

At one point Jesus was standing completely alone with even his close friends and family against him.

I am not judging you, just stating facts. I think it is wrong and it leads to lust and sin.

I struggle with it, but I am not going to justify it because I do.



Chris, dont misunderstand. I accept people. But I am not going to justify sin. You seem to be confused and struggling with some morality issues here. It is not my job to judge or to reject people and I will not do that. I think we need to be careful that we do not water down Gods word or his laws because we want to accept everyone and everything. You can still accept and love people and condemn sin. It is not the sinner we are condemning here.

I think what people want to hear though is Oh its OK you can do what you want. That is not the way it should be.

The Lord's essential character doesn't change.

I believe the Hebrews noticed God, but they also noticed evil. Every religion tries to identify why there is evil, but also why there is so much good. Christians have one way of describing this. I don't doubt that you are describing God's acts, I just see them as GOD, and not necessarily "Jesus the Christ."

If God knows everything, does he know sin?

If he's perfect, is he perfectly evil?

If he has all power, why does he not end evil? He tests us with it? I less like this God the more I hear about him...



You're right. Weed kills brain cells, but it feels great. You hone in on pornography, and you're right, but don't forget that many other things potentially can harm people. Pornography is in and of itself neutral. It's people that can abuse it.

Paul didn't condemn ALL homosexual activity in Romans 1. He didn't even know about same-sex orientation nor loving homosexual relationships. He is referring to those that are heterosexually-constituted who engage in anal sex with others. How would that be? Pagan temple sex and anal rape.



It's not always easy to tell the dividing line between what is right and wrong. I am critical about it. I had to wake up and realize that I am not the center of the universe. A lot of Christians do not think about what they are not or what they do not do. This is the case with homosexuality.



I am. You used a false analogy before. You are still assuming that pornography leads to lust every time, and that it objectifies women. Of course, it is done for women. While there are some women that do not want to do it, but are forced to (and I think this is wrong), most want to be paid to do it. They obviously don't mind being objectified.

I'm not saying that person can do whatever they want. I'm also not going to lie: I sometimes wish it was black and white, and easy to discern as the Bible sometimes puts laws (or is apparent in the English translation). Yet it's not. It's not as easy as "Never lie," or "Never steal," or "Never have sex with anyone other than your wife," or "Never kill." There's all kinds of gray areas. It must be nice to feel you have most things figured out. Most people want to accept whatever they understand, but when a person understands a lot, they get confused sometimes. It's not as easy as "Read the Bible and you'll know the answer."

-Chris

If you like God less the more you hear about him then I would check the sources you are listening to. If you like God less as you study his word and do not see his great love for you then you are being tricked by the enemy.

What does this have to do with God being a perfect unchanging being?



It is not neutral Chris. There are really no good uses I can think of for taping people having sex and having a video record of that. If married couples want to do this then I am not sure where I stand on that, but generally this type of thing would be done with the intent to either become aroused visually through lust and or make money off of it. Both things if traced go to lust and greed.



Chris, you seem confused to me... no offense. If you cannot read that scripture and see that clearly Paul is saying same sex relations is wrong and perverted then I am not sure what to tell you.

When you show someone something in black and white and they do not see it then you have to say, where do we go from here..?

This is becoming an issue between you and the Lord. I have done my part in showing you the truth that I see.



Chris, humans thinking they are the center of the universe is generally what causes this type of thing. People get self focused and start using their feelings and fleshly desires to dicate morality and choices.

That is when you start justifying things like Lust, porn, homosexuality and masturbation. Then the next thing you know you are in the world full bore sowing to the flesh.



Once again you are using the "feel good" approach to morality. You are saying if someone is OK with it then it is not wrong. If a woman wants to be in porn then it is OK.

It leads to lust in me every time and I would imagine that it is not healthy for any men to watch porn. It will always lead to a desire for more lust and sexual impulses and acting out through fantasizing.

That is like saying well I can masturbate and think about the moon stars and baseball. give me a break.




Chris, we are talking about two different things here. I did not say that we would never act these behaviors out. That is not the issue. the issue is are they wrong.

Christs death on the cross covers a multitude of sins for the world and covers every human that believes in him because we all fall short.

you seem to be debating from a point of if we do it then it must be right and I just do not get that. It is a mindset like well I have a penis and I am attracted to all these women so it must be OK for me to sleep with them all.

No that is not right. That is why human beings are such terrible moral compasses if left to their own desires and reasoning. That is why it is important day after day to read the word of God and spend times in scriptures like Proverbs to hear over and over again what we should not do.

Left unchecked the flesh will eventually overpower and affect the reasoning of any person. The desires for some of these things are so strong that we will begin to justify this behavior because our flesh craves it so much.

Natcon:



Point taken.

God's perfection is specific. We should explain what we mean by it to certain people.



I hear it ringing in my ears: Never record yourself having sex because someone you don't want to will ALWAYS find it. When you say "lust" I hear "covetousness" which is different from simply enjoying God-given beautiful sexuality.



This was an issue between me and the Lord. That was before I realized how wrong I was because of the things I'd heard. Let me ask you something: What is God's word? Is it the NIV, the NASU, the NKJV, the ASV, the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts...? I have made consistently clear to you that I view the word of God to be in the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. That is, the words from those languages. Hence, "homosexuality" is a mistranslation based upon what the word originally meant: "homosexual offender"



Humans are the center of the universe insofar as God dwells in them. Have you forgotten that God is spirit? "Justifying," "justifying," "justifying..." Will you ever consider that you are wrong given the overwhelming evidence against you? I really want to study psychology more because there is clearly something psychologically brainwashing that has happened to you.



If something feels good, then yes, it probably is right. The burden of proof is then on proving it wrong. "Acting out through fantasizing?" What?! Fantasizing is in your head. You don't act it out. That's an oxymoron. Unless, of course, you're talking about acting out FROM fantasy, in which case, I say you may as long as it is not illegal or you don't see harm in it.

I never said you can or should masturbate without lusting, nor would you want to. You are pretending as though I share your belief in lust as sin, which is a mistranslation of a Greek word that means "covet."



That is ridiculous, and in no way what I've said. You are posing fallacy after fallacy.



I agree. Heroin addicts are especially adept at this. It does not, however, bear on my position which I have presented ample evidence for. You simply do not want to hear the truth, thus you are ignoring it. Or perhaps you literally do not see it yet. This is so frustrating.

-Chris

He is perfect, all knowing, all seeing ect... There is nothing to change to there. He does not get worse and how can he get any better. He is the absolute perfect example of perfection. No change required.



Well lust for your wife would be OK I guess. When I say lust I generally associate that with an unhealthy lust that leads into sin. That is why I think it is impossible to masturbate without fantisizing about something. That in itself would be wrong because you are pulling sexual gratification from someone other than your wife or future wife and or thinking about another person in lust.

Masturbation is a doorway act to bigger things. It just makes you want more and if that does not come through healthy channels it will lead to things like fantasizing with multiple partners, porn in magazines and videos on the net ect... The desire will increase. Your flesh is like a black hole that is not really satisfied and is left wanting more unless it is put in check. The only way to do that I think is through the word of God.



I think we are discussing this same thing on another board.



I assure you that people are not the center of the universe Chris. Servants are not the center and that is what we should be. Your fleshly nature and the world is going to want exactly the opposite of servanthood, but Christ says that the greatest among us is the lowly servant. Think about it.

When you begin to see things in this way it sheds new light on the war going on between the Wordly things and Christ.



The feel good it is right attitude comes from the world Chris, not from Christ. If I did everything that felt good and thought totally with my feelings I would be in terrible messes.

You need to understand again that Christ said a higher standard in the NT testament that even convicted us of our thoughts. That was the point of moving past the law. Christ came back and saw that the Pharisees were trying to obey the law but they inside were filled with terrible thoughts and sin.

We can sin just as easily with lust in our minds as we can acting it out physically.



You just said if it feels good then it is right. Did you not?



Chris, the only person that thinks you are providing ample evidence here is you.

It is going to get more frustrating for you because you are fighting a battle that you have already lost. You cannot fight against the Lords laws Chris.

Seven years of heated discussion later and still nobody can decide if masturbation is a bloody sin or not! Maybe we should take this up with the Vatican or something....maybe have a Worldwide International Masturbation Seminar and invite represenatives from all the major faiths to participate...including the head Ayatollah from Iran, Billy Graham, The Church of England Bishop, A delegation of Hindus from India, the Dali Lhama from Tibet, etc.

This being in limp... I mean limbo about the *touchy* masturbation issue has to be decided soon or some of us might die not knowing, and how can that be a good thing?

I think seeing it is pretty simple. Accepting it is the hard thing.

When something is that good it gets in the way of right. That is why there are so many sex issues in this world. Always has been since the beginning of time. You can go back to Sodom and Corinth in the bible and see it.

When we first started this I did not say it was going to be easy. But the truth is the truth.

Are you (Facilitator) or anyone here going to then open a thread here on being drawn to God?

I tell you what, Anonymous,

If you sign up for a name here so we can stop calling you "Anonymous", you will be able to start a discussion on people being drawn to God yourself, any time you like, and if y'all don't insult us too much we'll all come and join in and talk to you about it.

Sound like a fair deal?