Fool Moon - Intelligent Debate for Intelligent Adults
Announcements
Friday Night Week In Review
by Matt
Today at 08:59 AM
Sponsors
Good Stuff
Shout Box

Who's Online
6 Registered (Chocolategenii, Cy_Click, Helice, knockie, Ray, stone), 108 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Photo Gallery
2005 Suzuki C50 Boulevard
SKS
My baby part duex
Nature
Michigan Lighthouses and Shoreline Images
My new baby
Flower Power
The March of the Geese
Ireland 2008 pt. 3
Ireland 2008 pt. 2
Ireland 2008 pt.. 1
Local Elected "Honest" Politician.
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
New Reply
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
Hop to:
#266493 - 04/25/08 03:53 AM Dark matter was found
Elena Moderator Offline
Sci/Tech Moderator

Registered: 07/10/05
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Astrophysical data show that the major part of the matter in the Universe consists of “dark matter”. It was named ‘dark” because it is invisible in any diapason (X-ray, optical, ultraviolet etc). It reveals itself only by gravity influence on stars, galaxies and gas. The nature of the “dark matter” is also unknown. Astrophysicists suppose that the main components of it are WIMP — weakly interacting massive particles. They form huge clouds around every galaxy. Thus Solar system moving through WIMPs must be under influence of “WIMP wind”. At the same time the Earth goes round the Sun. So the Earth must experience changeable “head WIMP wind” with a one-year period.
WIMPs weakly interact with common matter, thus they easily come through the Earth. But sometimes they collide with nucleus, give them part of own impulse and knock out electrons. This process causes flares of light. So, it is possible to test the theory by measuring the frequency of such flares.


And it is finally detected.

“The highly radiopure $\simeq$ 250 kg NaI(Tl) DAMA/LIBRA set-up is running at the Gran Sasso National Laboratory of the I.N.F.N.. In this paper the first result obtained by exploiting the model independent annual modulation signature for Dark Matter (DM) particles is presented. It refers to an exposure of 0.53 ton$\times$yr. The collected DAMA/LIBRA data satisfy all the many peculiarities of the DM annual modulation signature. Neither systematic effects nor side reactions can account for the observed modulation amplitude and contemporaneously satisfy all the several requirements of this DM signature. Thus, the presence of Dark Matter particles in the galactic halo is supported also by DAMA/LIBRA and, considering the former DAMA/NaI and the present DAMA/LIBRA data all together (total exposure 0.82 ton$\times$yr), the presence of Dark Matter particles in the galactic halo is supported at 8.2 $\sigma$ C.L..”
. http://arxiv.org/abs/0804.2741v1


Edited by Elena (04/25/08 03:54 AM)
_________________________
"It is better to be roughly right than precisely wrong"

Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#266495 - 04/25/08 05:25 AM Re: Dark matter was found [Re: Elena]
Myrddin Moderator Offline
Sci/Tech Mod


Registered: 01/17/04
Loc: Earth, Solar System, Milky Way
Interesting, but I want to wait until the discovery is independently verified. Of course, there is still the unresolved issue of Dark Energy, which takes up more of the universe than Dark Matter and ordinary matter combined.
_________________________
In varietate concordia - EU motto

For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.
- Carl Sagan

Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#266537 - 04/25/08 06:34 PM Re: Dark matter was found [Re: Elena]
Bad Bird Offline
experienced member

Registered: 02/17/08
Loc: WA, USA
After skimming the report I would say that it establishes a gold-standard for identifying and compensating for possible systematic effects and side-reactions. An 8.5 sigma confidence level is pretty convincing and--just visually--the processed data supports that level. Peer review comments seem to have been sparse and adequately addressed. All that is lacking is validation using a completely different experiment, although this experiment was repeated over several cycles with each cycle yielding consistent results.

Dark Matter! That used to be the stuff of Science Fiction. Now I would place it as highly likely on my belief scale. \:\)
_________________________
Bad Bird

A rising tide sinks all leaky boats. (Paraphrased view of an economic theory, by me.)

Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#266574 - 04/26/08 04:23 AM Re: Dark matter was found [Re: Bad Bird]
Elena Moderator Offline
Sci/Tech Moderator

Registered: 07/10/05
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Many physicists think that it is necessary to build the similar set-up to prove this theory. The new set up should be located in the Southern hemisphere and detectors mustn’t be of NaI(TI), but of KI or LiI.

. http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0804/0804.2741v1.pdf (the description of the DAMA/NaI).

This article is about debates: “Dark matter claims disputed”
. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/33870

 Quote:
Other physicists point out other potential causes for the modulation. Any neutral particle can scatter off a nucleus to make it recoil, so it is possible that the modulation signature is caused by neutrons from cosmic rays. However, several independent experiments have failed to find the same rate of bombardments by cosmic-ray neutrons in the DAMA experiment’s energy range (2–6 keV), which goes against this interpretation.
Another possibility is that the DAMA team are actually observing flashes of light produced by particles scattering off atomic electrons, rather than nuclei. “ZEPLIN-III might be able to detect an electron-recoil modulation at the rates and energies reported by DAMA, but for that we need a longer run,” says Araujo.
A third possibility is that the recoils are being produced by a hypothetical particle known as an axion. These light particles, which were conjured to resolve the “strong-CP” problem in the theory of the strong force in the late 1970s, have been suggested as candidates for dark matter before, but have so far evaded all attempts to be found. An axion fit to explain the modulation in the DAMA experiment would need a mass around 3 keV
_________________________
"It is better to be roughly right than precisely wrong"

Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#266682 - 04/27/08 04:20 AM Re: Dark matter was found [Re: Elena]
lizbeth Offline
veteran member

Registered: 11/29/06
Loc: PNW
I can, in no way, match your scientific knowledge, Elena; however, isn't it true that science must first try to dis-prove itself before it can 'prove' itself? Science establishes a theory based on observed data. The only way it can establish that theory is by repeated attempts to establish other theories, through experimentation, until just one theory comes out on top. That can take years.

Why is dark matter important? Does it hold the universe together? I'd like to learn.
_________________________
Tomorrow's just your future yesterday. Craig Ferguson

Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#266691 - 04/27/08 09:37 AM Re: Dark matter was found [Re: lizbeth]
joblo Offline
experienced member

Registered: 06/23/03
Dark matter is needed to plug some holes in General Relativity. General Relativity works well at predicting the motions of bodies in a system up to the level of a solar system, but falls flat on it's face when we try to apply it at the scale of a galaxy or cluster.

According to GR, galaxies should behave much like our solar system. As you move out from the center of the solar system, the circular velocity of a body in orbit around the sun begins to fall off. This doesn't happen in a galaxy though. Instead, near the outer edges the rotation curve simply becomes flat and doesn't change. If this happened in our solar system, then Pluto would have flown out of orbit and off into space somewhere, because it would have been moving to fast to stay put. The question is, why don't the stars at the outer edge of a galaxy fly off into empty space since they're not slowing down?

Well, some scientists came up with the idea of matter that you can't see(or even directly sense) to fill these holes. If you pile up all this invisible dark matter around the outside edges of a galaxy, it adds mass, and makes the galaxy much broader across than it appears, and thus explains why the rotation isn't slowing down. In other words, the outside edges aren't slowing down because they're not really the outside edges.

Of course, all this is well and good assuming General Relativity is correct and accurate at all scales. However, we've already seen GR fall apart at the quantum level, and I think it's certainly possible that it can fall apart at other levels of cosmology as well. If this whole dark matter thing turns out to be wrong, then it will probably take a new theoretical breakthrough to get their mathematical formulae back in line and working again.
_________________________
Please feel free to criticize, modify, take credit for, or delete any part of this post! wink

Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#266697 - 04/27/08 10:37 AM Re: Dark matter was found [Re: joblo]
Cy_Click Online

Can you hear me now?

Registered: 08/08/06
Loc: Minneapolis,MN
Do I have to reconsider my meaning when I say, "You can stick it where the sun don't shine."?

Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#266835 - 04/29/08 12:35 AM Re: Dark matter was found [Re: lizbeth]
Elena Moderator Offline
Sci/Tech Moderator

Registered: 07/10/05
Loc: Moscow, Russia
 Quote:
Why is dark matter important? Does it hold the universe together? I'd like to learn.


I’ll tell about it in detail later. Briefly, scientists can’t make both ends meet in their calculations.
The calculations are correct only if our Universe has such structure: 5% - common matter, 0, 5% - stars, 0, 3-3% - neutrino, 25% - dark matter, 65-70% - dark energy. Of course, “dark matter” and “dark energy” are hypothetical substances. Physicists even say that the nature of dark energy is the main puzzle of fundamental Physics of XXI century.
_________________________
"It is better to be roughly right than precisely wrong"

Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#266839 - 04/29/08 01:01 AM Re: Dark matter was found [Re: joblo]
lizbeth Offline
veteran member

Registered: 11/29/06
Loc: PNW
Thank you for your explanation, Joblo, I kind of knew dark matter had something to do with holding the universe together, but couldn't remember the details. I also knew that GR doesn't work at the quantum level.

It is, however, a theory that has led to many advances in physics theory, which may lead to even more discoveries. That's what makes it all so exciting.
_________________________
Tomorrow's just your future yesterday. Craig Ferguson

Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#266842 - 04/29/08 01:22 AM Re: Dark matter was found [Re: Elena]
Bad Bird Offline
experienced member

Registered: 02/17/08
Loc: WA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Elena
The calculations are correct only if our Universe has such structure: 5% - common matter, 0, 5% - stars, 0, 3-3% - neutrino, 25% - dark matter, 65-70% - dark energy.


For those of you that may be baffled by Elena’s post: Much of the world uses commas to denote decimal points, whereas the USA uses periods. Translated into American, the above would be: 5% common matter, 0.5% stars, 0.3 to 3% neutrinos, 25% dark matter, and 65 to 70% dark energy.

As if that isn’t confusing enough, in the USA we would say that a railroad can climb a 3% grade, while elsewhere it would be a 30% grade. (In Japan for sure. Probably other countries as well.)

Of course we are right and they are wrong.
_________________________
Bad Bird

A rising tide sinks all leaky boats. (Paraphrased view of an economic theory, by me.)

Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Quick Reply:
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is disabled




Moderator:  Elena, Myrddin, stone 
Town Meeting
Recycling
by stone
21 minutes 7 seconds ago
GM Bailout
by Cy_Click
Today at 02:07 PM
Renewing American Diplomacy
by Cy_Click
Today at 01:39 PM
The Secret Service Blames Sarah Palin!
by Cy_Click
Today at 12:23 PM
12 WeeK-Old Fetus Walks, Rubs Eyes
by Dax
Today at 11:24 AM
Depression
by Chocolategenii
Today at 11:17 AM
Whats Good for G.M. Is Good for the Army
by Lawmage
Today at 09:47 AM
Obama, "Don't Bring In Clinton Leftovers"
by Chocolategenii
Yesterday at 01:33 PM
G-20 Meetings!
by Myrddin
Yesterday at 05:36 AM
LETS BAN EVERYONE!
by dreamer
11/19/08 10:09 PM
President-Elect Barak Obama
by DixieNurse
11/19/08 08:55 PM
Zany
by Dax
11/19/08 01:02 PM
Vindication
by DixieNurse
11/18/08 10:40 AM
My Baby! My Baby!
by lizbeth
11/17/08 11:45 PM
The Gas Price Update
by lizbeth
11/17/08 11:11 PM
Seven Page Obama Vetting Questionaire
by Lawmage
11/17/08 06:59 PM
Hard Buns
by lizbeth
11/16/08 09:12 PM
Iraqi Soldier Kills American GIs
by Lawmage
11/16/08 05:38 PM
Is Palin now a Rogue?
by Dax
11/16/08 03:07 PM
Obama and Israel
by Chocolategenii
11/16/08 02:17 PM
Science and Technology
Tomato Ketchup
by knockie
11/21/08 02:43 PM
Oxycodone
by Chocolategenii
11/21/08 12:01 PM
New Gun Purchases
by Lees
11/20/08 07:59 PM
Is History a science?
by aus22
11/20/08 07:12 PM
Idiopathic Stabbing Headache
by Aint
11/19/08 04:39 PM
Something woke me up in the middle of the night! It was looking at me!
by FaithfulKisses
11/19/08 03:02 PM
Disney Children Movies & "Hidden" Sexual Messages??
by Anonymous
11/19/08 03:20 AM
DID A MUNCHKIN HANG HIMSELF DURING FILMING OF THE WIZARD OF OZ?
by Dax
11/18/08 06:34 PM
What should I plant?
by tutti
11/17/08 07:51 PM
Heart-Burn
by Grams
11/17/08 12:29 PM
Sore throat. Remedies and myths.
by Dax
11/16/08 04:02 PM
BEWARE OF THE COMING FOOD APOCALYPSE !
by Chocolategenii
11/15/08 12:45 PM
Can you relate?
Miss Fool Moon USA
by World_HQ_Man
11/21/08 01:28 PM
I've got some information guys! I think you might be intrerested!
by World_HQ_Man
11/21/08 01:09 PM
Blank Spaces
by WakeHolden
11/21/08 12:49 PM
Just for a laugh.....
by shedoni
11/21/08 09:12 AM
The Three-Word Story
by lizbeth
11/20/08 07:13 PM
NFL - You Pick
by deifan
11/20/08 09:17 AM
The rant, whine, complain and gripe thread.
by LilMeep
11/20/08 03:44 AM
NCAA Football 2008
by jokul
11/19/08 04:12 PM
Will the CERN particle collider destroy the planet?
by Anonymous
11/19/08 03:10 PM
Wear the silver foil, for the love of all that's holy!
by Anonymous
11/19/08 03:06 PM
Elvis impersonators (Elvii) may takeover planet by 2020
by WakeHolden
11/19/08 02:41 PM
Foolmoon Fantasy Football III
by jackdiddley
11/19/08 04:37 AM
I think I might be paranoid
by Anonymous
11/18/08 03:21 PM
Nudity or no nudity?
by World_HQ_Man
11/18/08 03:08 PM
What are you reading?
by lizbeth
11/17/08 11:55 PM
Georga Anne Marie is born
by bob
11/17/08 06:08 PM
Fool Moon Fantasy NASCAR 2008 Standings
by deifan
11/17/08 02:14 PM
Fool Moon Fantasy NASCAR 2008 (Ford 400)
by Ray
11/17/08 10:43 AM
Chupacabras, Mexican Reptilians in Disguise
by WakeHolden
11/16/08 10:54 PM
Repetitive numbers all day - is someone telling us something?
by Dax
11/16/08 05:04 PM
What would you do with 1 Million Dollars?
by BrandensMummy
11/14/08 10:15 AM
Black Eyed Children And Who Or What Are They? Spooky.
by WakeHolden
11/14/08 01:42 AM
Fool Moon Fantasy NASCAR 2008 (Checker O'Reilly Auto Parts 500)
by Ray
11/13/08 09:16 PM
How to Convince a Girl That I Love Her More Than Others Do?
by stone
11/13/08 04:07 PM
I'm Baaaaack!!! Where's Jazzschmo & Moonbrat?
by WakeHolden
11/09/08 10:59 PM
Faith and Philosophy
Tobias and Satanism
by Chocolategenii
Today at 11:42 AM
Zodiac
by DCInC
Today at 11:02 AM
The Difference Between the Creator and God
by Grams
Today at 09:15 AM
The five solas #2: Sola Fide
by DCInC
Today at 12:46 AM
'Feast of Tabernacles - 2008
by DCInC
Today at 12:36 AM
"Becoming" unsaved...
by DCInC
Yesterday at 03:21 AM
Being called to the Ministry..
by DCInC
Yesterday at 02:26 AM
Jesus' Kingdom--where is it??
by Grams
11/19/08 04:57 PM
The five solas of the Protestant Reformation: Sola Scriptura
by Grams
11/18/08 07:11 AM
Back page of our church paper
by DixieNurse
11/17/08 11:07 PM
Be transformed
by safford13
11/17/08 01:34 PM
Samhain
by DixieNurse
11/16/08 02:53 PM
Bible Verse Abc's
by DixieNurse
11/16/08 01:31 AM
Sons and Daughters of the Creator
by DCInC
11/14/08 11:47 PM
Overcoming
by DCInC
11/11/08 09:24 PM
Forum Stats
8528 Members
35 Forums
11615 Topics
242470 Posts

Max Online: 2631 @ 03/18/08 12:30 AM