It isnt just America I equate with the evils of militarism and capitalism Ray, but never mind.

I wasnt my intention Ray to come over smarmy or self-righteous, it just came out that way lol, sorry.

Believe it or not, I quite enjoy reading your longer posts(with or without open-eds). I think the longer posts are useful for filling in the dots about where each of us is coming from, and allows us both the opportunity to pick-apart each others arguement. Isn't that the point?

You are absolutely right about "picking apart each other's arguments." Fun ain't it? I've spent many years in the "word" business; as a news director at a radio station, and as an advertiser, writing and producing radio ads. I've spent nearly my entire working life paying close attention to sentences, phrases, and the sematic use of individual words.

You once accused me of trying to be a mind-reader. I would merely state that one's choice of words and phrases very often gives insight into one's thought processes beyond what is actually said by those words in the literal reading OF those words.

If you once worked in advertising Ray, then it stands to reason that you will have a head start on me in the abusing/twisting of words department.

Don't advertisers lie by ommission?
Now I know why you know your Orwellian logic..

Resistance to terror is terrorism. War is anti-terrorism. All people are equal but some people are more equal than others. Presidential legitimacy derives not from the masses, but from the courts.

The path to peace is war, therefore War IS Peace.

Pah, advertisers... (no offence)

Maybe you should read 1984 again Ray, seeing as you've forgotten bits of it. It's one of my favourites.

Have you ever read 'The Iron Heel' by Jack London, or 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists' by Robert Tressel?

Books like these made me the guy I am today,,, roflmao..

ALB SAYS:

quote:

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Why is it, that the displaced, homeless, army-less, humiliated people of Palestine are denied the 'moral superiority' that is claimed for America when they kill Afghans in retaliation for Saudi's attacking them??

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Are you kidding? Maybe if poor displaced, homeless, humiliated, and Army-less palestininas would stop supporting the efforts of the radicals that bomb school buses they just might have the international moral superiority that you think they deserve. On the other hand, if Araft can't control his folks after 32 years what makes you think anybody can? I would guess that the best type of control over Arafat might come from
Israel, I sure don't see the Islamic muslums racing over to force Arafat's control into international compliance standards.

Even firefighters fight fires with fire, Man thats a tongue twister.

It isn’t always easy to keep up with the latest happenings, but it would appear that perhaps we’ve misjudged Yasser Arafat in the lasted murder bombing. According to an Associated Press report, the “bomber” was a 16-year-old Arab youth name Hamza Samudi. Jerusalem Post further reports that the order for the bombing came from one Ramadan Shelah, and Islamic Jihad leader based in Syria. You remember Syria, don’t you? That’s the county that, for the month of June assumed the rotating presidency of the United Nations Security Council. You remember the United Nations? They’re the one’s who won a Nobel Peace Prize in 2001. You remember Yasser Arafat? He’s the one who one a Nobel Peace Prize in 1994. You remember Israel. They’re the ones that balk at having the United Nations come barging in doing “investigations.” If I were the Israelis I’d also balk at having the Nobel Prize Committee drop by for tea.

Wow, I'm gone for two days and the board lights up with a dandy debate!

Let us discuss truth for a moment.

Both ALB and Ray are right....the answer lies somewhere in between.

Israel is stronger, morality wise, when it comes to military engagement.
Yet, they are often very immoral when it comes to bigotry and land use.
There is no doubt that Israel has taken land that is not rightfully theirs.
There is no doubt that a large number of Palistinians support reprisals for this fact, that are far beyond the scale of moral justness.

The arguement, over who started what, is not material: in the end, the UK is to blaim for leaving this group of loons to fight it out, in the hopes that a powerless UN could solve anything.
In the end, the UK is responsible for Empirical rule over the area in the first place.
But that was then, this is now.

ALB, though the numbers of Afghanistan dead are not as high as you would claim, Afghanistan suffered for their Rulers failings, not for AL-Quaida.
The Taliban could have tossed our enemies out and lived.
They did not.
They could have held the door open and let us come in and drag our enemies into the open.
They did not.
Instead, they attempted to block us from getting to our enemy....thus, they became our enemy.
And because the Taliban ruled the people of Afghanistan......
The fact is that the Afghani's allowed the Taliban to rule them, and they paid a heavy price for it, and the payments are not yet over.

I know.....they were too weak to overthrow their masters.
I know....the Americans are somewhat responsible for the Taliban gaining power in the first place.
But because of this knowledge, the American forces did not intend to target Afghani citizens.
We also took great pains to feed those who were wise enough to leave the areas of great danger.
So for those few who chose to stay in the path of danger?
Sorry.....they should have made a better choice.

Which brings us back to the truth of Ray's assertion concerning American morality.
Americans support those who support themselves.....No matter where they are.
There are those who are bright enough to take advantage of the void left by our wake.
And because of this, countries are often not as well off "leadership wise" after our passing, as they were before we took action.
But the opportunity is always there as we pass.
The Iraqi people could have overthrown Saddam when we were there, and some did try.
Yet most stood around with their hands in their pocket and expected us to do it for them.
Did we abandon them in their hour of need?
No.
They failed themselves.

Right now, at this moment, Arafat could gain everything that he claims to want.
What he needs to do is quite easy.
1: Declare all ties with terrorist groups severed. That includes Hamas, Hezzbolah, etc.
2: Arrest and actually detain the few men who are wanted for specific acts. (He can ask for immunity for them later on)
3: Explain to his people that the near future is not of import, but the future will be brighter than anyone has ever hoped...if only they can with-hold from acts of violence for now.
4: Appeal to the world community (He has our attention for now) and explain that Palistine must be granted statehood.
This would include a great deal of media campaigning, explaining to the Americans what the term "settlement" truely means.

If he were to do these four things today, the Palistines would have their own country by the end of the year.
Would it be as big as all of the Palistinians would like?
Certainly not!
Would it be as small and powerless as the Israeli's would like?
No!
A large portion of the money that Israel receives would be diverted to Palistine...but not all, since the Jews would still be greatly outnumbered by other Arab countries.
But here is the point: The "settlement" of Palistine by Jewish occupation would end...period!
Israel would have absolutely no choice but to deal with their nieghbor in a freindly manner (after all, they need Palistinians for their economy to work).
Palistine and Israel may even fight along side each other against Hezzbolah and the like, as security would be a mutual matter.
And because of this, Palistine would be armed to the teeth by their American allies.

If Arafat would only step back and look at the big picture, he would see that he has Israel exactly where he would like to have them!
Those four small steps would insure that Israel would be on the spot...An American President has declared that a Palistinian state is required!
The hardline Israelis would find themselves facing, not "terrorists" bombing "innocent" civilians on a bus (most of the most recent victims were soldiers by the way 6-5-02) something that they can always claim the high moral ground on.
But instead, they would find themselves facing a dire decision: Do we defy the Americans and continue to subject these people to bigotry, or do we accept that we will never own all of Judea?
The Israelis would rapidly find that Americans mean what we say!

Yet, Alas, Arafat has proven beyond a doubt that he is a fool!
On 9-11 and 9-12, he appeared to have a brain. He tried very hard to keep Palistinian celibrations in the street, concerning American deaths, from reaching American eyes.
He should have known beyond a doubt that ANY suicide bombing after 9-11 would be a fatal mistake.
He should have informed everyone involved that those kinds of acts would not be tolerated, and acted swiftly and publicly to punish those who attempted such a thing.
He still could have taken weapons from Iran.
He still could have attacked military targets, like the fuel depots, and military checkpoints.
But he sealed his fate by supporting acts that no American would ever stand for.
Now he has condemned them.
If he only takes those next four steps.....