Man is not solely responsible for the changes, because the climate is a very complex system. However, Man has introduced changed to the atmosphere which accelerate the changes in global temperature. It is somewhat like throwing a small rock at a slope of unstable snow; a small event, or a series of events causes a very large event to happen, just like in this example, an huge avalanche of snow occurs.

I am tired of excuses; we should attempt to make industry as green as possible. Profit today does not in anyway, outweigh the possibly of Man contribiting to large changes in the climate, happening today and getting worse tomorrow.

I find it funny, that those who often talk the most about personal responsibility, often favor personal or corporate irresponsibility, when the responsible or more ecologically holistic approach, might negatively impact short term profit. Lack of long term vision when it does not involve their personal gain, and lack of concern for others, seem to be reoccurring rightist blind spots.

Brother Myr, I agree with you that industry should be as green as possible...however, I do not think junk science about global warming is the reason. Personally, I do not want to live in a polluted cesspool. I want to breath clean air and eat uncontaminated fish I catch in clean rivers and lakes. The climate is going to change...its what climates have done for as long as we have had weather on planet Earth. There exists plenty of evidence for climate change, even sudden global climate change.

Stone seems to immediately disregard Dr. Lindzen's research and comments because he is allegedly somehow associated witht he oil industry. I think that is disingenuous. If he wants to discredit Dr. Lindzen he ought to provide some scientific evidence that refutes his comments rather than try a personal attack based on past associations. Dr. Lindzen raises some valid points...even if the models the most hysterical global warming proponents use are correct those models DO NOT predict the dire catastrophes these same people use to try and shape public opinion.

The earth today is warming...that seems prety well established by the available evidence. WHat is not so well established is the mechanism behind that warming. Even if we concede a human impact on the process--and its pretty clear there IS some human impact--the available evidence does not clearly establish the weight of that human impact. This is important because it raises a question of cost-benefit balance in the effort to reduce the human impact. For instance, if human induced global warming accounts for 99% of all global warming then perhaps it is off benefit to reduce the human contribution. On the other hand, if humans contribute only 10-15% to global warming then it is not in our interests to disrupt our economies and lifestyles to eliminate that contribution. Our efforts would be much better spent on dealing with the changes rather than futily trying to stop them.

I'm sure you've read Arthur Conan Doyle and the many times Holmes and Watson went out into a 'pea-soup' fog on the way to their adventures. I'm also sure that you know about the cost to clean and preserve the Lourve, the Acropolis and many other structures that have existed, unharmed, for decades and/or centuries.

The pea-soup fog was the consequence of the industrial revolution that used coal for power.

China is shutting down gas stations and converting pump nozzles to nozzles that capture fumes and store those fumes in tanks for later use. China is trying desparately to clean the air in Beijing in anticipation of the Olympics. How can athletes compete in polutted air?

Do CO2 emissions contribute to global warming? We really don't know, do we? They haven't been around long enough to know.

We do know that the emissions contribute to health problems--just as smoking does. If we don't cut down CO2 emissions for our earth, can we do it for ourselves?

Are you asking me personally, Liz? I think my comments to Myr answer that question before you even asked it...

I think I pretty clearly acknowledged that human actions have had an impact on the environment and on climate...the question is really how much of the climate change is attributable to human behavior. Or, to put it more pointedly...how much of the climate change can we halt or reverse by changing our behaviors? THis is where the issue of "junk science" raises its ugly head. Too many people are mistaking correlation with cause...that is junk science.

What part of


did you not understand? I didn't entirely dismiss him though his connections to the oil industry do make him a bit suspect.

Oh, I see. So maybe we need a greater show of hands, huh? OK. How about this report in the National Post [http://tinyurl.com/2yz5ej] concerning a "letter" written to the United Nations Secretary General in reference to the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change:



The "letter" was signed by MORE than two scientists:

Don Aitkin, PhD, Professor, social scientist, retired vice-chancellor and president, University of Canberra, Australia

William J.R. Alexander, PhD, Professor Emeritus, Dept. of Civil and Biosystems Engineering, University of Pretoria, South Africa; Member, UN Scientific and Technical Committee on Natural Disasters, 1994-2000

Bjarne Andresen, PhD, physicist, Professor, The Niels Bohr Institute, University of Copenhagen, Denmark

Geoff L. Austin, PhD, FNZIP, FRSNZ, Professor, Dept. of Physics, University of Auckland, New Zealand

Timothy F. Ball, PhD, environmental consultant, former climatology professor, University of Winnipeg

Ernst-Georg Beck, Dipl. Biol., Biologist, Merian-Schule Freiburg, Germany

Sonja A. Boehmer-Christiansen, PhD, Reader, Dept. of Geography, Hull University, U.K.; Editor, Energy & Environment journal

Chris C. Borel, PhD, remote sensing scientist, U.S.

Reid A. Bryson, PhD, DSc, DEngr, UNE P. Global 500 Laureate; Senior Scientist, Center for Climatic Research; Emeritus Professor of Meteorology, of Geography, and of Environmental Studies, University of Wisconsin

Dan Carruthers, M.Sc., wildlife biology consultant specializing in animal ecology in Arctic and Subarctic regions, Alberta

R.M. Carter, PhD, Professor, Marine Geophysical Laboratory, James Cook University, Townsville, Australia

Ian D. Clark, PhD, Professor, isotope hydrogeology and paleoclimatology, Dept. of Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa

Richard S. Courtney, PhD, climate and atmospheric science consultant, IPCC expert reviewer, U.K.

Willem de Lange, PhD, Dept. of Earth and Ocean Sciences, School of Science and Engineering, Waikato University, New Zealand

David Deming, PhD (Geophysics), Associate Professor, College of Arts and Sciences, University of Oklahoma

Freeman J. Dyson, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton, N.J.

Don J. Easterbrook, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Geology, Western Washington University

Lance Endersbee, Emeritus Professor, former dean of Engineering and Pro-Vice Chancellor of Monasy University, Australia

Hans Erren, Doctorandus, geophysicist and climate specialist, Sittard, The Netherlands

Robert H. Essenhigh, PhD, E.G. Bailey Professor of Energy Conversion, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering, The Ohio State University

Christopher Essex, PhD, Professor of Applied Mathematics and Associate Director of the Program in Theoretical Physics, University of Western Ontario

David Evans, PhD, mathematician, carbon accountant, computer and electrical engineer and head of 'Science Speak,' Australia

William Evans, PhD, editor, American Midland Naturalist; Dept. of Biological Sciences, University of Notre Dame

Stewart Franks, PhD, Professor, Hydroclimatologist, University of Newcastle, Australia

R. W. Gauldie, PhD, Research Professor, Hawai'i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology, School of Ocean Earth Sciences and Technology, University of Hawai'i at Manoa

Lee C. Gerhard, PhD, Senior Scientist Emeritus, University of Kansas; former director and state geologist, Kansas Geological Survey

Gerhard Gerlich, Professor for Mathematical and Theoretical Physics, Institut fur Mathematische Physik der TU Braunschweig, Germany

Albrecht Glatzle, PhD, sc.agr., Agro-Biologist and Gerente ejecutivo, INTTAS, Paraguay

Fred Goldberg, PhD, Adjunct Professor, Royal Institute of Technology, Mechanical Engineering, Stockholm, Sweden Vincent Gray, PhD, expert reviewer for the IPCC and author of The Greenhouse Delusion: A Critique of 'Climate Change 2001,Wellington, New Zealand

William M. Gray, Professor Emeritus, Dept. of Atmospheric Science, Colorado State University and Head of the Tropical Meteorology Project

Howard Hayden, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of Connecticut

Louis Hissink MSc, M.A.I.G., editor, AIG News, and consulting geologist, Perth, Western Australia

Craig D. Idso, PhD, Chairman, Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, Arizona

Sherwood B. Idso, PhD, President, Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, AZ, USA

Andrei Illarionov, PhD, Senior Fellow, Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity; founder and director of the Institute of Economic Analysis

Zbigniew Jaworowski, PhD, physicist, Chairman -Scientific Council of Central Laboratory for Radiological Protection, Warsaw, Poland

Jon Jenkins, PhD, MD, computer modelling -virology, NSW, Australia

Wibjorn Karlen, PhD, Emeritus Professor, Dept. of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology, Stockholm University, Sweden

Olavi Karner, Ph.D., Research Associate, Dept. of Atmospheric Physics, Institute of Astrophysics and Atmospheric Physics, Toravere, Estonia

Joel M. Kauffman, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Chemistry, University of the Sciences in Philadelphia

David Kear, PhD, FRSNZ, CMG, geologist, former Director-General of NZ Dept. of Scientific & Industrial Research, New Zealand

Madhav Khandekar, PhD, former research scientist, Environment Canada; editor, Climate Research (2003-05); editorial board member, Natural Hazards; IPCC expert reviewer 2007

William Kininmonth M.Sc., M.Admin., former head of Australia's National Climate Centre and a consultant to the World Meteorological organization's Commission for Climatology

Jan J.H. Kop, MSc Ceng FICE (Civil Engineer Fellow of the Institution of Civil Engineers), Emeritus Prof. of Public Health Engineering, Technical University Delft, The Netherlands

Prof. R.W.J. Kouffeld, Emeritus Professor, Energy Conversion, Delft University of Technology, The Netherlands Salomon Kroonenberg, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Geotechnology, Delft University of Technology, The Netherlands Hans H.J. Labohm, PhD, economist, former advisor to the executive board, Clingendael Institute (The Netherlands Institute of International Relations), The Netherlands

The Rt. Hon. Lord Lawson of Blaby, economist; Chairman of the Central Europe Trust; former Chancellor of the Exchequer, U.K.

Douglas Leahey, PhD, meteorologist and air-quality consultant, Calgary

David R. Legates, PhD, Director, Center for Climatic Research, University of Delaware

Marcel Leroux, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Climatology, University of Lyon, France; former director of Laboratory of Climatology, Risks and Environment, CNRS

Bryan Leyland, International Climate Science Coalition, consultant and power engineer, Auckland, New Zealand William Lindqvist, PhD, independent consulting geologist, Calif.

Richard S. Lindzen, PhD, Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology, Dept. of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences, Massachusetts Institute of Technology

A.J. Tom van Loon, PhD, Professor of Geology (Quaternary Geology), Adam Mickiewicz University, Poznan, Poland; former President of the European Association of Science Editors

Anthony R. Lupo, PhD, Associate Professor of Atmospheric Science, Dept. of Soil, Environmental, and Atmospheric Science, University of Missouri-Columbia Richard Mackey, PhD, Statistician, Australia

Horst Malberg, PhD, Professor for Meteorology and Climatology, Institut fur Meteorologie, Berlin, Germany

John Maunder, PhD, Climatologist, former President of the Commission for Climatology of the World Meteorological Organization (89-97), New Zealand

Alister McFarquhar, PhD, international economy, Downing College, Cambridge, U.K.

Ross McKitrick, PhD, Associate Professor, Dept. of Economics, University of Guelph

John McLean, PhD, climate data analyst, computer scientist, Australia

Owen McShane, PhD, economist, head of the International Climate Science Coalition; Director, Centre for Resource Management Studies, New Zealand

Fred Michel, PhD, Director, Institute of Environmental Sciences and Associate Professor of Earth Sciences, Carleton University

Frank Milne, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Economics, Queen's University

Asmunn Moene, PhD, former head of the Forecasting Centre, Meteorological Institute, Norway

Alan Moran, PhD, Energy Economist, Director of the IPA's Deregulation Unit, Australia

Nils-Axel Morner, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Paleogeophysics & Geodynamics, Stockholm University, Sweden

Lubos Motl, PhD, Physicist, former Harvard string theorist, Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic John Nicol, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Physics, James Cook University, Australia

David Nowell, M.Sc., Fellow of the Royal Meteorological Society, former chairman of the NATO Meteorological Group, Ottawa

James J. O'Brien, PhD, Professor Emeritus, Meteorology and Oceanography, Florida State University Cliff Ollier, PhD, Professor Emeritus (Geology), Research Fellow, University of Western Australia

Garth W. Paltridge, PhD, atmospheric physicist, Emeritus Professor and former Director of the Institute of Antarctic and Southern Ocean Studies, University of Tasmania, Australia

R. Timothy Patterson, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Earth Sciences (paleoclimatology), Carleton University

Al Pekarek, PhD, Associate Professor of Geology, Earth and Atmospheric Sciences Dept., St. Cloud State University, Minnesota

Ian Plimer, PhD, Professor of Geology, School of Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Adelaide and Emeritus Professor of Earth Sciences, University of Melbourne, Australia

Brian Pratt, PhD, Professor of Geology, Sedimentology, University of Saskatchewan

Harry N.A. Priem, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Planetary Geology and Isotope Geophysics, Utrecht University; former director of the Netherlands Institute for Isotope Geosciences

Alex Robson, PhD, Economics, Australian National University

Colonel F.P.M. Rombouts, Branch Chief -Safety, Quality and Environment, Royal Netherland Air Force

R.G. Roper, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Atmospheric Sciences, School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences, Georgia Institute of Technology

Arthur Rorsch, PhD, Emeritus Professor, Molecular Genetics, Leiden University, The Netherlands

Rob Scagel, M.Sc., forest microclimate specialist, principal consultant, Pacific Phytometric Consultants, B.C.

Tom V. Segalstad, PhD, (Geology/Geochemistry), Head of the Geological Museum and Associate Professor of Resource and Environmental Geology, University of Oslo, Norway

Gary D. Sharp, PhD, Center for Climate/Ocean Resources Study, Salinas, CA

S. Fred Singer, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Environmental Sciences, University of Virginia and former director Weather Satellite Service

L. Graham Smith, PhD, Associate Professor, Dept. of Geography, University of Western Ontario

Roy W. Spencer, PhD, climatologist, Principal Research Scientist, Earth System Science Center, The University of Alabama, Huntsville

Peter Stilbs, TeknD, Professor of Physical Chemistry, Research Leader, School of Chemical Science and Engineering, KTH(Royal Institute of Technology), Stockholm, Sweden

Hendrik Tennekes, PhD, former director of research, Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute

Dick Thoenes, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Chemical Engineering, Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands

Brian G Valentine, PhD, PE (Chem.), Technology Manager -Industrial Energy Efficiency, Adjunct Associate Professor of Engineering Science, University of Maryland at College Park; Dept of Energy, Washington, DC

Gerrit J. van der Lingen, PhD, geologist and paleoclimatologist, climate change consultant, Geoscience Research and Investigations, New Zealand

Len Walker, PhD, Power Engineering, Australia

Edward J. Wegman, PhD, Department of Computational and Data Sciences, George Mason University, Virginia

Stephan Wilksch, PhD, Professor for Innovation and Technology Management, Production Management and Logistics, University of Technolgy and Economics Berlin, Germany

Boris Winterhalter, PhD, senior marine researcher (retired), Geological Survey of Finland, former professor in marine geology, University of Helsinki, Finland

David E. Wojick, PhD, P.Eng., energy consultant, Virginia Raphael Wust, PhD, Lecturer, Marine Geology/Sedimentology, James Cook University, Australia

A. Zichichi, PhD, President of the World Federation of Scientists, Geneva, Switzerland; Emeritus Professor of Advanced Physics, University of Bologna, Italy

Naturally, I'm sure they're all connected to the oil industry, too, if not completely on the Bush family payroll. You suppose?

If your posts get much longer Ray, I will move them to "Jesus Talk" . Nice list of scientists, but I wonder what percentage of scientists would agree with these people, compared to the percentage of those who disagree. I also would like to know what percentage of those who agree, have funding from oil or related industries.

...and how many scientists of the global warming advocate school of "concensus" rely, for their livelihoods, upon government and/or "green" industry grants that reward startling and disturbing findings necessitating additional grants for further research? Hey! They all have to eat, right?

Green industry is not something to be welcomed? If you are saying there is money in green industry, then that is not a slam on it, it is just saying there are profits to be made in something that many people on the right seem to view as economic suicide.


One profits from causing more damage to the Earth, while the other profits from activity which reduce damage.

Green industry funded science can find disturbing things which can also benefit the industry? I don't care frankly, as long as what disturbing things are found are actually truth. Science relates to the process of discovering truth, regardless of raised or reduced profits.


If one wants to find truth which relates to industrial/human related harm to the environment or the human effects on global warming, then the oil industry is unlikely to be funding it. If one wants to find spin which is generated to cause doubt in peoples minds about the relationship between global warming and human activities, the oil industry is often times behind it.

Doubt causes delays in action, delays in action or delays in changes towards greener energy solutions, means a maintenance of the status quo, and a maintenance of the status quo, means a maintenance of older non-green energy solutions like oil, and that means more oil profits. The equation is easy to read, if you wish to read it.

.

Myr, what I think Ray was rather rightly pointing out was that the scientists who are among the most vocal proponents of global warming are also biased...every bit as much as those scientists with connections to the oil industry about whom Stone is so doubtful.

The vocal global warming proponents have a vested interest in having their research funded and so have a vested interest in publishing results their funders will like and that will justify further funding.

Here is thing, Myrddin...it appears some, perhaps a lot, of what these scientists are 'finding' is not in fact the truth but is motivated by the desire to obtain future funding. This is why it is so important to look at research objectively and to look at multiple, repeatable, research projects. It is necessary to winnow out the "junk science"...You and Stone and others have no problem applying that to the research that purports to show the global warming issue is conflated. I suggest true intellectual honesty requires you apply it to the research supporting the claims of the global warming alarmists.

While it is indisputably true that we are seeing global warming take place, it is FAR from established that Mankind is solely or evenly largely responsible for that warming. Much of the research that claims to demonstrate this responsiblity does not in fact do so. What it demonstrates is a correlation. Guess what folks, correlation in science does not equal cause.