So, essentially what you are telling us, CassielA, is that violence in Africa among Africans over african issues is the fault of white people in the West...I was hoping you could provide specifics as to HOW and WHY?

One other small point that I don't want to neglect... CassielA, I am puzzled as to exactly who pulling people from their cars and killing them based on their tribal affiliation or burning them alive as they sought shelter in a church is "saying to the world we don't want to live like savages." Similarly, I am perplexed as to how the US was involved with, responsible for, or somehow arranged for Kenyans to do these things? Are there American "house negros" who have infiltrated into Kenya and somehow seized control of these Kenyan mobs?

Cass,

The US had nothing to do with the Kenyan elections. Both candidates want the same thing for Kenya--a continuation of democracy and a continuation of a strengthened economy. Since both tribes want the same thing, and since the Luos are killing the Kikuyu, isn't that tribal rather than ideological warfare?

Why do African tribes fight each other over silliness? Perhaps because Orkney Islanders in Kirkwall, Scotland, play ba' on Christmas and New Years--because they've done it for centuries.

Tribal warfare--whether done with machetes, stones and sticks, or guns, mortars and roadside bombs is the way tribes gain ascendency over other tribes. A world view, and the tribes place in that world can't, yet, be understood by the various tribes extant within the world.

I know in all your pretentiousness that you enjoy pointing out why America is so superior to third world nations but you conveniently overlook the fact that we do riot. Your short term memory overlooks the rioting that took place after the Rodney King verdicts or the race riots of the 1960's that claimed hundreds of lives.

If the US saw the extent of fraud in our election system that the African's deal with, you can bet your ass there would be people out in the streets rioting.

Careful, Stone. You're laying the foundation for an analogy that would end up having your Nobel prizes rescinded.


So, is this to say that widespread election fraud in African countries is America's fault, or what? Like the riots spawned by the fraud, isn't the fraud their problem, too?

You really enjoy putting words in peoples mouths, don't you? Did I say or even imply that the fraud in Africa is America's fault? Did I? No, I did not. All I said was if we had to deal with the level of fraud that revolves around many of the elections in Africa, we would be out in the streets being pissed off also and I'm sure there would be a fair share of violence and looting.

Please enlighten me with your analogy. I like analogies. And you can have my Nobel Prizes when you pry them from my dead, cold, hands.

This is why I included the "or what?" option. So if you didn't think wide spread voter fraud was the fault of the United States, the you could offer up your own theories as to who or what was to blame for it. I might point out that this thread is titled, "US-Africa Policy" and it's found in a forum called, "U.S. Foreign Policy" so there's a natural presumption on the part of someone that this particular thread has something to do with Africa vis-à-vis the United States.

However, whether you concur with that assessment or not it's no reason to go get all snippy with me. (sniff) Kinda hurts my feelings.


But we're not out in the streets rioting, well, except for the example you gave which leads to...


You're a bright guy, I think. Maybe. Sorta. Work it out for yourself.

Lawmage before I go any further I just want let you know something about myself and how I feel as a black man towards Africa.I remember in 1976 when there was a famine in Ethiopia and the BBC and other news outlets were telling me that in Africa there was to much people and not enough food so that's why the Africans were starving.To me a 13 year old kid that made sense,that was until I started watching the news on the EEC as it was then "talking about wheat mountains,butter mountain,and beef mountains,and would you "Adam and eve it",even wine lakes.I have been watching the decline of Africa since then,today Lawmage we know why Africa is in the condition it's in today and it's not in the condition it's in by accident.

In the bank that I work at I call it "the bank of India" because so many Indians work there,there's one Indian guy that acts blacks but takes the piss by saying to me what's up monkey don't worry I give as good as I get.He wants to make out that Indians are a far better people than blacks,I say to him why do you think that the west has allowed India to rise I told him it's because they are looking for a hand when the west goes to war with China,you should see his face.I also said why do think the Caucasian man left "India as a country whole" and then split Africa up into many country's when they left,I could see his brain resetting,I told him he's not ready for me yet.The point is Lawmage The wicked knew what they were doing when they split Africa up they knew there would be "trouble and strife" and the west would always have a say "in the affairs of Africa" even if that say is negative like in Somalia.

Lizbeth:

I accept that but what people like me hate is the fact that the west arms one side,usually the house Negro's to the hilt,like the Ethiopians do you see how much damage is being done in Somalia is anybody really telling me that America has nothing to do with the carnage in Somalia?

Hello Aint:


What do you think might have happened if the Nazi's had won world war 2 and you had Germans walking around you neighbourhood, it's possible that some Americans might want to kill a few Germans no matter how much good some Germans might have been doing.I have said before Aint that I believe that all aid agency should leave Africa.

Lawmage said:


One of the richest African countrys is the Congo that country has been a mess for decades why because you had a black devil called Jonas Savimbi who lead a war against the government,are you telling me that this man savimbi was not helped by the west.Sorry for being boring are you telling me that Ethiopia is in Somalia whithout the blessing of America.Just googled this for Lawmage what do you reckon?

Taken from the new york times 27/11/1986:


Lawmage I don't see how you can ask me questions like you do when you know what American/white history is when it comes to Africa.Have you listened to that Bob Marley track yet,WAR.

The drought and typically arid climate of Ethiopia and other African countries are much to blame for famine. Add to that too many people living in an area which can not biologically support them, it aint whitie's fault. I'd like to hear how you feel about the weather.

Where to begin? Where to begin?

Lets start with Stone since he is the quickest... Ignoring for a moment the fact that America IS superior to third world nations, lets probe deeper into the issue. Lets reduce it to its fundamentals...Okay, Stone...Why is it that you see the sort of election fraud in Africa that leads to the sort of violence we are seeing in Kenya? What is different between America and Kenya?

Now for CassielA...
Well, Cass, while drought did indeed lead to famine, military conflict had far more to do with it. Food was used as a weapon and while there was adequate food for everyone (the so called mountains), participants in the conflict saw it as desireable to starve their opponents. You still have not provided any evidence that the US or the West was behind this interaction among Africans though, Cass.

No, Cass, its certainly not by accident...its by deliberate action by a host of people. It might shock you, Cass, but MOST of those people are blacks in Africa out for their own personal interests. They are not "house negros" serving hidden masters in the West...they are just your everyday garden variety selfish villians taking advantage for their personal pleasure and enrichment. The West certainly shares in the the burden...the weight of colonialism is unescapable. The West essentially drew the national boundaries in Africa without regard for traditional tribal boundaries. However, one is still forced to ask: "Why have the Africans not fixed the problem?" WHy haven't they sat down with one another and said, for instnace, "You know...this Rwanda thing is not really for us. You Tutsis and we Hutus do not really need to live together as Rwandans...lets split this puppy up. You guys take your traditional tribal range and we are gonna take ours. See ya later." I know, Cass, I know...its the evil white men hiding in the shadows that refuse to allow the Africans to solve any of their problems...those damn white devils!

Thats actually kind of funny, Cass. When one considers that India was "not a country whole" to be left in that condition prior to the Brits...it was a collection of hundreds of small kingdoms or, to use the title I think they used, "princely states." I have mentioned Africa further above. The post colonial national boundaries certainly need revision to more closely correspond to tribal or ethnic groupings. There are some flaws with your conception though, Cass.

Well, Cass, I hardly expect you to really understand what is going on in Somalia. The West is certainly helping the Ethiopians and the officially recognized government of Somolia. What you fail to mention, perhaps because it was inconvienent or you were simply ignorant of it, is that much of what is going in in Somolia is a continuation of the Ethiopian-Eritrean conflict and a minor thread in the broader Islamic war on the West. A small digression is in order. Ethiopia is a predominantly Christian country...one of the oldest in the world in fact. The bulk of Muslims were concentrated in Eritrea and this was in no small part the root of the conflict between the Ethipoian central government and the rebels in Eritrea. With Eritrean independence, the conflict has not ended. The two nations have continued to fight. They are currently engaged in a proxy war in Somolia, with the Ethiopians (and the West) backing the UN sanctioned government and the Eritreans backing the Islamic insurgents. Western involvement is not so much predicated on a villianous desire to subjugate the black African as it is on a desire to contain radical Islam and to protect the internationally recognized government of Somolia.

Surprisingly enough, I agree with you. The aid agences ultimately do more harm than good in the long term. they prevent the Africans from finding long term African solutions to African problems. large scale aid is often co-opted by corrupt governments and used to secure power for the ruling elites rather than actually help the people. Aid can be effective but it needs to be narrowly targeted and done at the lowest levels. If I were in charge of a program to develop Africa and bring it into the 21st century, I would take a three pronged approach. I would try to create a system of targetted micro loans that allowed development of small individual businesses. I would make vaccinations and disease eradication the second prong. And for the third prong, I would implement a road development program to facilitate transportation of goods and services. That would be it. No military aid, no direct governmental aid, nothing else...

Maybe you sould have actually read what you googled, Cass. Lets start at the top...Jonas Savimbi is/was a leader of UNITA...UNITA was not targetting the government of the Congo (aka Zaire), it was targetting the government of Angola. Savimbi wanted to remove the Cuban backed communist/socialist government of Angola or barring that, carve out an enclave in Angola for his own side. While the US made half hearted denials of its support for Savimbi, the simple truth is that the US did indeed provide him and UNITA with some backing. Not the sort of backing Cuba gave Angola...tens of thousands of Cuban troops and a few billion dollars in military equipment...but support nonetheless. I would suggest to you that the motivation was not to destabilize Zaire/Congo but rather part of the broader Cold War effort to contain the Societ Union and its client states, like Cuba. The US saw a Soviet/Cuban/Communist foothold in sub-Saharan Africa as a threat to US global interests and sought to mitigate that threat.

No, sorry. At the moment, all I have on my computer is a three disk "Best of Bob Marley" set and War is not included on that set. I would suggest though that Bob would be rather upset with you and anyone else who used his music as a rallying cry for violence no matter how noble you think your goals might be. While I like Marley, I think I like the harder ska edge of Peter Tosh...On the topic of reggae, are you familiar with the band "Black Uhuru?" Or for that mater, have you read the book Black Uhura?