Quote:

---

lizbeth: But, what'll you and Ray and Dax and I do when, and if, we do leave Iraq? What'll happen to our jobs?

---

I don't know about Ray or anyone else, but I'll probably have a few beers to celebrate.

Since my job is not associated with the military except to comment on it here, I don't anticipate job loss. No matter who is in power there will be corruption, secrecy and incompetence. But as long as the neo-cons are not in power, such corruption, secrecy and incompetence will not cost American lives unless absolutely necessary, as oppposed to conditions today.

Back to topic: I don't think we can discuss "Africa" as an entity. Each country is different. Many African countries are led by Charles Taylor-like dictators, which is at least half their problem.

Aside from mineral resources (a pretty big "aside"), the U.S. interest in Africa would basically be to prevent our enemies, China and Russia, from gaining further influence in the region.

I fear that to help Africa, it will have to be done nation by nation. I am not suggesting invasion, although one would like to line the DeBeers people up against the wall and call the firing squad.

Dax:

Most of the time I can tell who the "house negros" are and who the good guys are,but I have to say that I cannot understand whats going on in Kenya,can someone please enlighten me as to whats going on.

An election was held in Kenya, between the current President, Mwai Kibaki , and his opponent, Raila Odinga. Kibaki won the election by a narrow margin.

The two candidates are from different tribes. Odinga's supporters declared election fraud. Kenya's government has refused calls for an investigation from the European Union and others. The EU, along with the Red Cross, has said that the election showed "clear evidence of fraud."

As a result, tribal warfare has broken out. According to the New York Times "Dozens of people seeking refuge in a church in Kenya were burned to death by a mob on Tuesday...in an escalation of ethnic violence that is threatening to plunge the country into chaos."

For "ethnic" I think we can read "tribal."

Mr. Kibaki is a member of the Kikuyu tribe, his opponent Mr. Odinga is a member of the Luo tribe. The Kikuyus are considered the privileged class in Kenya.

Gangs of Luo tribe members have been reported as blocking roads, stopping cars, demanding identification, and lynching those who were suspected of being Kikuyu.

In response, the government has ordered marauders shot on sight, installed a curfew, and stopped live television and radio broadcasts.

So essentially, we have tribal warfare inspired by a possibly fraudulent election.

The church burning, which has appeared all over American television, began when some Kikuyus took refuge from the marauding Luo mob in the church located in the town of Eldoret. The Luos then set the church on fire.

This is just an overview, but I think it gives the basics of what has happened in Kenya, formerly a stable and peaceful country.

--Sources: New York Times, Washington Post, AP, CNN, Fox News

There is very little that I can add to Dax's overview except for the following:

There are about 40 tribes in Kenya. The Kikuyu make up only 22% of the population, but are among the most prosperous. The combination of Luos and two allied tribes make up about 13% of the total population. The Kikuyu have shared their prosperity with other tribes, but the Luos claim discrimination against them by the Kikuyu.

Mr. Kibaki, who 'won' reelection, claims that the Kikuyu government, in power since 1963, brought a strong economy to Kenya which relies heavily on tourism. Mr. Odinga, who 'lost,' worked early on with Kibaki until a 'falling out' separated them. He's fought against the Kikuyu government ever since.

Although a lot of the violence is 'hooliganism,' some analysts are calling it an attempt at 'ethnic cleansing,' which has so often happened in Africa.

The biggest question seems to be whether or not the election was rigged. The European Union says yes, but Kibaki refuses a re-count. Odlinga refuses to do anything until Kibaki steps down.

And, until more is known, that's where it stands.

One is forced to ask the obvious question...maybe CassielA will help us with an answer.

What is it about Africa that motivates/allows/accepts/condones/engages in this sort of violence? For instance, while the Bush-Gore election was very tight and there was and still is a great deal of acrimony about that election, we did not see Americans rioting in the streets, burning buidings, looting stores, and murdering people over it. Why do we see this sort of behavior in Africa? What is the difference between Africans and Americans that accounts for the difference in response?

I'm going to guess American's have too much too lose by such behavior. Rioting all night can affect one's performance on the job and may earn a suspension without pay. If not worse.

Hello Dax I heard that as soon as the fraudulent election results were anounced America congratulated the government of Kenya.I wonder if you have a view on that?
Dax:

I don't know,I think it could be more about "house negros and sell outs",who want to keep hold of power at all cost,and the people have come out and said that enough is enough.I am hearing a war cry in Kenya "no Raila no peace".Damn that sounds a lot like the chant you hear in some American black citys when injustice in America is being highlighted you hear "no justice no peace".This shows me at least that the black leadership in America is being heard in Africa,but I already knew that.

Lawmage my brother I do like you.I have said before that when I was growing up I always kept an eye on people like you,why because of thinking like this,

I will say it for you Lawmage "they are black savages".Thats what you want me say so I have said it.The people of Kenya are saying to the world we don't want to live like savages any more, we want real freedom.

The last time I saw black people with that look in their eye was just before Nelson Mandela was realeased from prison when the western media was projecting to the world that Mangosuthu Buthelezi was an alternative leader for South Africa.The rude boys of the ANC had that look in their eyes then like the Kenyans today and did damage.What you are seeing today in Kenya is nothing compared to what you are going to see in South Africa if the games the west is playing behind the scenes in South Africa are successful and Jacob Zuma does not become president of South Africa.

I have said before that black people in Africa are listening on mass to "Bob Marleys song "war",listen to that song Lawmage then you will really understand why the blackman is getting so violent.

Another reason for the violence seen in Kenya could be what Farrakhan warned about in one of his speeches about 10 years ago when he said,"you have never seen the wrath of the blackman,and I tell you you never want to see that,may be it's to late for Africa and Frrakhan was right.

Cass, you asked what the situation in Kenya was about. I took the time and trouble to research several media sources and provided you with what a felt was an objective overview of the situation.

You might have had the courtesy to say thank you before launching into your tirade against my country.

It will be a long time before I comply with one of your requests again.

John Granville was a member of the Peace Corps and USAID. Both are American organizations that give billions of dollars and man hours to help African countries. Yesterday, John and his driver were shot to death in Khartoum, Sudan.

Yes Dax I forgot my manners,as you know I don't do that very often so please forgive me.I should not have even wrote that post at that time of night.I would not call it a launching a your tirade against your country,it's just an observation of what your country may be doing in Africa.

Are we friends Dax I could not take it if you started writinging posts against me like George Bush,that would be terrible,as you said before I am a nutcase at times,fact not fiction.