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#145203 - 06/28/05 01:35 PM
Re: Iran Elects a War Leader
[Re: Lawmage]
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Master Debater
Registered: 12/04/01
Loc: southern mn
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Cass- I heard George Bush say today that Iran having nuclear weaponds was unaceptable what does he mean by that?
Wax- It is quite clear what he means, and I think that you know that already.
The real question is whether wiping Iran, Syria, and Lebanon out will really cause much of an impact politically.
We may allow Israel to do it, but this would cause bigger problems than simply doing it ourselves.
The Arab nations simply do not amount to much of a threat to the west.
Don't get me wrong, they could cause shortages in fuel and be a slight military "irritation" but they will never work together enough to threaten anything in a "real" way.
The true danger with them lies in distraction.
The Soviet/Chinese block would actually be foolish not to take advantage of such a thing.
_________________________
Courage is not an emotion, it is an act of will.
Pain which does not kill you, makes you stronger, and, very, very, mean!
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#145204 - 06/28/05 01:48 PM
Re: Iran Elects a War Leader
[Re: wax]
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Administrator
Registered: 08/01/99
Loc: New York, NY (New York)
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Quote:
The true danger with (Arab nations) lies in distraction.
The Soviet/Chinese block would actually be foolish not to take advantage of such a thing.
One could make the arguement that Iraq is a distraction, and has been for years, whereas a greater show of force in Afghanistan would have by now probably secured bin Laden, made things tougher for the warlords, and showed the world that America was committed to engaging those who attacked it, not some other country which had nothing to do with 9-11.
Doing so would have strengthened, rather than weakened, our place in the world, and would have not eroded whatever popularity or support the US had among other nations.
This is all hindsight, of course, but some of us have been saying it on these boards since the beginning. I knew there was nothing Saddam Hussein could have done to prevent us invading his country. Nothing would have been good enough, or correct enough, or "honest" enough for the Bush administration.
So it's sad, sad that we've made our place in the middle east so violently, viciously and dishonestly won. It's sad that Iran elected a hard liner, a fundamentalist. It's sad that because of the horrendous squandering of time, money, and lives in Iraq the Americans have no further appetite for war.
Buy stock in arms companies and Halliburton, my friends. If we're all gonna die, we might as well die rich.
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#145206 - 06/28/05 03:54 PM
Re: Iran Elects a War Leader
[Re: wax]
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Absolutely incredible, in the literal sense
Registered: 08/04/02
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Hello Lawmage the Iranians have elected a war leader he has come from the people to step up to the world plate i hope America is ready as it keep's saying that it is.The North Koreans say that they have unfinished business with you and i suspect some Iranians feel the same about America to.I cant believe that the good people in the west are going to allow their leaders to plunge the world into darkness. We have been in the opening stages of WWIII since the seventies. Our enemies appetite has held out for quite some time. Untill i got on this site Wax i did not know this and this kind of thinking,mind set call it what you will frightens me.So reading between the lines Wax you said that the American troops are better off in Iraq than all be stuck in Afghanistan.  This next misadventure America undertakes in the middleast will be it's last why do i say that just look at the mess that is Iraq.Some of you have some nerve keep talking about war just tell me one aspect of this war in Iraq that is going well?As i am writing reports are coming in that a helicopter has crashed with 24 American soldiers on board.I have asked this before you lost the war in Vietnam what lessons did America learn that they are now applying in Iraq.  I have said before that somthing is not right at the heart of the west's thinking that want's a third world war,Why is that i wonder is it so they can bring man back to the "animal state" so they can bring in the new world order "job done so say's the devil".  Dax i know that i do not have to keep saying it but well said about dying rich. 
_________________________
Iraq,Syria,and Iran, is arabic for Vietnam.
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#145208 - 06/29/05 12:36 PM
Re: Iran Elects a War Leader
[Re: Aint]
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Master Debater
Registered: 12/04/01
Loc: southern mn
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Cass- i say that just look at the mess that is Iraq.
Wax- What "mess"?
Again people, Iraq is not a quagmire or even a failing proposition.
It could not be going any better than it is!
Soldiers fight and soldiers die, the loss of each individual soldier is a tragedy for those who loved them.
We have had thousands of personal tragedies.
But not tens of thousands, not hundreds of thousands... and certainly not millions.
If all things remained as they are the US could lose what?
Another two or three thousand troups perhaps?
Meanwhile our enemy has lost ten... twenty... thirty times that!
And like it or not the Iraqi people themselves have made true gains for the future.
Are there abuses, both physical and financial?
Absolutely, just as one would expect.
But our actions in Iraq have gone just fine so ar, and will continue so.
And let us not forget, another terrorist attack in America and no one... absolutely no one, will even consider what has happened in Iraq so far as important!
_________________________
Courage is not an emotion, it is an act of will.
Pain which does not kill you, makes you stronger, and, very, very, mean!
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#145210 - 06/29/05 02:23 PM
Re: Iran Elects a War Leader
[Re: Aint]
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Administrator
Registered: 08/01/99
Loc: New York, NY (New York)
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Quote:
In Vietnam we contained most of our activities to below the 38th parallel. There is no such dividing line in Iraq or Afghanistan.
So what? You might as well argue that Iraq and Vietnam are not equivalent because Iraqis speak Arabic and Vietnamese speak Vietnamese. It's not a comparison.
Quote:
In Vietnam we used drafted troops. The war against terror is all voluntary enlistment.
But that is only because the draft of Americans to fight in Vietnam ended with the lowest, poorest, least empowered Americans as cannon fodder. And the average person, for or against the war, saw his children dying.
It is because of this that there is no current draft. Another reason there is no draft today is that it might affect the sons and daughters of people like Dick Cheney or George W. Bush, or rich non-politicians to whom the government is beholden. Nobody wants their son or daughter killed in Bush's war. Fewer than Vietnam, anyway. Of course, even during a draft, it is very unlikely that a rich man's son, or an influential man's son, would see combat in Iraq. They'd more likely be running the New York USO, handing out theater tickets to GIs on leave.
Quote:
In Vietnam we never captured Nguyen Thi Binh, Pham Van Dong or Ho Chi Minh (not his real name, by the way). Saddam Hussein is in jail right now and we've caught or killed many others in our most wanted deck.
But this again has nothing to do with equivalence. The capture of Saddam is meaningless in this context, since he, like Vietnam, was not a direct threat to the United States. We just butted in there for our own falsely perceived interest, we were into an escalation of the war by Lyndon Johnson, the same way we were lied to by George W. Bush. This is a parallel, not a difference.
Interestingly enough, Ho Chi Minh's real name was George Lewis Saugus Jr. 
Quote:
We've done alot more rebuilding and public works in Iraq then we did in Vietnam.
Because nobody wanted us in Vietnam, and when we got out, we got out fast. What would we rebuild? The hooches we burned down? We didn't need anything from Vietnam so rebuilding was the very last thought in anyone's mind.
Quote:
Yes we have learned from Vietnam. We have learned well.
Indeed, some of us have learned from Vietnam. But not what you think we've learned.
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#145212 - 06/29/05 03:10 PM
Re: Iran Elects a War Leader
[Re: Dax]
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Master Debater
Registered: 12/04/01
Loc: southern mn
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Dax- I wish this had happened before Bush's second term...
Wax- You wish what had happened?
That Iran became a threat?
That happened in the seventies, there were some hostages involved, I'm sure you remember.
Obviously you and I see the Iraq situation in much different terms... but...
I am not sure that you even view the situation realistically.
"Iraq" is going fine.
BTW: Almost every war in history "began with a lie".
That hasn't effected the outcome in any way.
"Remember the Maine?" Evidence has shown that it likely wasn't attacked.
What of it?
We have a reason to be in Iraq, does the majority of America understand what that reason is?
No... but that is not all that shocking.
Bush was pretty clear last night on it, we have brought the war there rather than here.
You would prefer the battle in the streets of New York?
The fact is that the plan has worked so far.
We know this because New York has not been attacked in four years... in fact no city in America has been... yet(the feint won't work forever).
_________________________
Courage is not an emotion, it is an act of will.
Pain which does not kill you, makes you stronger, and, very, very, mean!
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#145214 - 06/29/05 05:18 PM
Re: Iran Elects a War Leader
[Re: wax]
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Administrator
Registered: 08/01/99
Loc: New York, NY (New York)
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Wax, I just don't buy the "fight them there or fight them here" line. I heard a rabbi say this on television last night and I wondered if God had made him clairvoyant and given him the ability to accurately predict the future. "Fight them there or fight them here?" Maybe. But maybe not. In fact, more likely not.
I remember when I was protesting the vietnam war and someone asked me "When would you fight, when they're storming the coast of California?" which was laughable in itself, but my response was "Yes, that would be a very good time to fight."
When Not Iraq attacked the WTC, I and everyone else supported the invasion of Afghanistan, sponsor of terror and protector of Osama. Then the President started talking about Iraq. And Iraq has occuppied our attention over Afghanistan since Bush first spoke of the Axis of evil. Indeed, we brought about the situation now prevalent in Iraq. Only Karl Rove revisionists will say "Bush's plan was to draw the terrorists into one country so we'd have a good shot at them." It's ridiculous on its face.
No Wax, "fight them there or fight them here" is just an advertising catch phrase to keep selling the war. It has no validity, and will have some or none only after the fact.
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#145218 - 06/30/05 12:20 AM
Re: Iran Elects a War Leader
[Re: aus22]
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member
Registered: 07/03/03
Loc: varies from day to day
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Where do you guys get this stuff...? For instance, Aus wrote: Quote:
Iran or Persia elected a hardline Anit American leader because of the American action in Iraq,
You assume for a moment that the Iranians elected Ahmadinejad because of some sort of support for his hardline stance...You ignore that the ayatollahs rejected more than a thousand other candidates for office, ruling them ineligible because they were not sufficiently hardline...if you think the Iranian elections were free and fair in any sense at all, you are smoking something you really ought to share with Aint and Stone...
Quote:
They are ready for this attack. As you said other pro western governments in Saudi Arabia and Eqypt will also fall. Then the Arbs will be united in a Moslem brotherhood against the west.
Well, the Iranians are not Arab, they are Persians...The Arab world likes them just the slightest bit more than it likes America and Israel...I hardly see them making common cause with the Iranians in some Muslim spirit of fraternity, seeing as how they hardly even consider the overwhelmingly Shia Iranians to be Muslims at all.
Quote:
They might not win but they will make the price of oil so high that the American economy and way of life will change for ever.
Yeah, yeah, yeah...You are perhaps familiar with the Oil Embargo in the 1970s? It altered the American way of life forever, too....right? You forget that America is hardly dependent on Middle Eastern oil. As of 2002, the US produced 37.4 per cent of its energy requirements from domestic energy sources. It got a mere 1.5% of its energy sources from Iraq and only 12.5% from other Arab OPEC sources. The rest, 48.7% came from other sources, such as Venezuala...So, if you think that the Arabs, who represent at best 14% of US oil sources are going to completely disrupt the US economy and "alter the american way of life forever" you are toking on your pipe a bit to quickly...
_________________________
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." ~ Claire Wolfe
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#145225 - 07/02/05 12:43 PM
Re: Iran Elects a War Leader
[Re: cassielA]
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Administrator
Registered: 08/01/99
Loc: New York, NY (New York)
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Quote:
Lawmage i am hearing on the news that this new leader in Iraq was involed in the America hostages been held in Iran in 1980.If this is proved to be true what do you think America will do about this?
I'm sure Law will have some good ideas about this, I think if it turns out to be true (or, come to think of it, even if it doesn't) the current administration will use it for the fullest propaganda purposes.
True or not, there isn't very much the US can do about it other than talk. Our leaders have already labelled Iran one of the "axis of evil" so there isn't much Iran can do to make it worse. Once you're at axis of evil, there's really no place to go.
THE TOWN MEETING FORUMS: 11 HOURS WITHOUT A HITLER REFERENCE!
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#145228 - 07/02/05 06:21 PM
Re: Iran Elects a War Leader
[Re: Lawmage]
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Absolutely incredible, in the literal sense
Registered: 08/04/02
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Lawmage said this, Besides,the Iranians have a long history of supporting terrorism and terrorists, what difference does it make if a "former" terrorist is in office? So i take it you believe that America does not have a history of supporting terrorism and terrorists,still suffering from selective amnessia i see. P.S.Has America handed over that suspect to the Venezuelian goverment,thought not.What is America going to do when this country decides to restrict the oil to America because it believes that America supports terrorism and terrorists.I know what i will be doing and that's "shorting the dow" if i hear that news.
_________________________
Iraq,Syria,and Iran, is arabic for Vietnam.
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